Assuming this to be true, I congratulate Furman. Basketball is the sport that has the potential for national recongnition and therefore to bring in big bucks. Keep doing it, for basketball only. We compete against the big boys and must stay competitive. A couple of years ago, the only SoCon basketball team not paying this stipend was VMI.76MrMoto wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:30 amI have not seen the below mentioned elsewhere on this Board. Therefore, if I missed it and it was posted by someone else, I apologize for the duplication here.
Since Furman needs to reduce expenses (which I believe without doubt is true) I wonder if they cut out the $2,000 "cost of attendance" stipend given annually to each (i.e. probably only those on a “full ride”) men and women’s’ BB player? These players receive a full ride plus $2,000 more for "incidental expenses" (defined as a “Cost of Attendance” supplement which is “legal” within the NCAA).
Because several other SOCON schools give their men’s BB players a full ride plus "cost of attendance", Furman pays this annual additional $2,000 to ensure men's BB remains competitive in the SOCON. (My perception is the only reason women's BB players also receive the annual $2,000 is because of title 9).
The “BB cost of attendance” payment likely started in the last year or two that Mike B. was AD. I say this because in either 2017 or 2018, when I asked him whether or not Furman was paying “Cost of attendance in any Furman sport”, he replied vaguely saying something to the effect that “additional assistance was being provided in some cases”. Since this question was asked of Mike in a crowd of about 20-25 people, I did not press further on this issue.
In the fall of 2019, when I asked the same question of JD, also in the presence of 20-25 other people he replied honestly by stating “cost of attendance” (i.e. $2,000) was being paid in both men and women’s BB.
After the meeting, I asked another Furman athletic staff member present the question “as a Furman grad/Furman football walk on that earned a full ride, I would have been ticked off to know that the men’s BB players were receiving $2,000 yearly more than me so how does Furman address this issue”? The response was “we try to keep it as quiet as we can for that reason”.
If other posters on this Board want to challenge the authenticity of the above, call the AD and ask him the same as I did. In addition, I am not betraying any “trust” in disclosing the above, because the meeting was open to all interested and any of the other 20-25 people present could have (and likely did) discuss Furman’s COA payments with others.
My position on “Cost of Attendance” is Furman should publicly acknowledge it is being paid, to whom (i.e. in what sports) and why this is necessary for Furman to do. (Note: If Furman has already done this, I failed to see/hear it and therefore, apologize for this comment).
As I said earlier in this post, if the above has already been posted, I apologize for the duplication
Baseball Dropped (Updated)
One would wonder, after considering the 40 year history of Furman basketball, why it would be thought that throwing money at the problem is the answer? I know we rolled the dice and it came up sevens with the Medved hire (after rolling for 40 years) We soon will roll the dice again, the same school that gave us Jeff Jackson, Joe Cantafio, Jene Davis. Scary? It could be argued that cannabalizing another sport could help to afford a higher salary for the coach but even with that, Furman will outspend very few...…. and I doubt any of you love Furman basketball any more than I do.
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I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I was referring to myself.
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I throwing money at the problem, and carefully managing the program and how it uses that money, is the key to success of any sport at Furman. The amount of money, of course, varies per each sport.tim wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 12:24 pmOne would wonder, after considering the 40 year history of Furman basketball, why it would be thought that throwing money at the problem is the answer? I know we rolled the dice and it came up sevens with the Medved hire (after rolling for 40 years) We soon will roll the dice again, the same school that gave us Jeff Jackson, Joe Cantafio, Jene Davis. Scary? It could be argued that cannabalizing another sport could help to afford a higher salary for the coach but even with that, Furman will outspend very few...…. and I doubt any of you love Furman basketball any more than I do.
Should we decide to just be "at least minimally adequate" in all sports, so we can have as many as possible?
The problem with that is this: highly successful football and even much more than that highly successful basketball at Furman attracts a lot of students to be interested in Furman, and attracts a lot of alumni donations, and attracts a lot of community support.
And it is wonderful to be great in other sports and win the Commissioners cups frequently, but that does not attract students like successful football and especially successful basketball much more than football.
We could debate the meaning of successful football and of successful basketball.
Also, we could debate the meaning of maintaining a level of "at least minimally adequate" in all sports, so we can have as many sports as possible.
Maybe Division-3, in all sports, would be "at least minimally adequate," except that probably would not work for Furman unless we were to somehow suddenly become a whole lot better academically enabling us to attract, without D-1 athletics, students and donors dollars (such as, is the case with schools like Sewanee, W&L, Williams, Amherst; or big schools like Emory, Johns Hopkins, Washington University in St. Louis).
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If we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
College athletics, to a significant degree, are marketing arms of the University. A viable athletics program increases Furman's name recognition, reach, and ability to attract students.Furmanoid wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 pmIf we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
I've read the numbers before, but Mercer's applications shot up after they beat Duke in the NCAA tournament a few years ago.
I wonder how many went to Mercer to see a basketball powerhouse. Jokes on them.
Name recognition? OK those few ESPN games against big guys might help a little if you don’t get killed. And all those times we beat top 10 teams in March Madness probably did spike applications. But I question whether it actually impacts enrollment much. I’d love it if it did, but I don’t believe it. I’m just basing it on talking with lots of kids at all of the local (Aiken Co) high schools. Kids are different from the way they were in my day. And FU is way different.
On the other hand tennis (which I gather some would like to see whacked) has a very high quality Nike camp every year. A bunch of mostly rich, mostly smart kids from reasonable driving distance come and spend a week on our pretty awesome campus. That seems like a cheap well targeted marketing tool.
Just trying to pump the breaks a little on the idea of eliminating some minor sports.
Name recognition? OK those few ESPN games against big guys might help a little if you don’t get killed. And all those times we beat top 10 teams in March Madness probably did spike applications. But I question whether it actually impacts enrollment much. I’d love it if it did, but I don’t believe it. I’m just basing it on talking with lots of kids at all of the local (Aiken Co) high schools. Kids are different from the way they were in my day. And FU is way different.
On the other hand tennis (which I gather some would like to see whacked) has a very high quality Nike camp every year. A bunch of mostly rich, mostly smart kids from reasonable driving distance come and spend a week on our pretty awesome campus. That seems like a cheap well targeted marketing tool.
Just trying to pump the breaks a little on the idea of eliminating some minor sports.
Compare applications following: (a)NCAA men's BB tourney appearance, (b)Men's BB tourney win, and (c) FCS Championship.The Jackal wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 7:41 amCollege athletics, to a significant degree, are marketing arms of the University. A viable athletics program increases Furman's name recognition, reach, and ability to attract students.Furmanoid wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 pmIf we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
I've read the numbers before, but Mercer's applications shot up after they beat Duke in the NCAA tournament a few years ago.
There are numerous articles, studies, even doctoral dissertations easily found in literature that document the positive impact of basketball March Madness participation (and, even much more, success or "Cinderella-ism")on admissions applications. Many of the articles also include football success, but some focus totally on basketball and NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament.Fessor wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 11:21 amCompare applications following: (a)NCAA men's BB tourney appearance, (b)Men's BB tourney win, and (c) FCS Championship.The Jackal wrote: ↑Sat May 30, 2020 7:41 amCollege athletics, to a significant degree, are marketing arms of the University. A viable athletics program increases Furman's name recognition, reach, and ability to attract students.Furmanoid wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 pmIf we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
I've read the numbers before, but Mercer's applications shot up after they beat Duke in the NCAA tournament a few years ago.
The positive effect is upon not only the quantity of the applications but also on the quality of applicants.
This definitely applies to schools like Furman; and I would point to Davidson College and Davidson Wildcats basketball as a fairly good example.
5 of the 7 members of Furman's board of trustees are new. They took over in November. You have to wonder if cutting sports is the new norm at Furman with this group. It took them just a few months to completely alienate thousands of people from Furman and more importantly the Greenville community.
You may be right.Furmanoid wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 pmIf we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
Also, I doubt you will agree, but it seems that your comments would be good to use in any argument in favor of becoming a Division 3 school.
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 1:52 pm5 of the 7 members of Furman's board of trustees are new. They took over in November. You have to wonder if cutting sports is the new norm at Furman with this group. It took them just a few months to completely alienate thousands of people from Furman and more importantly the Greenville community.
You could write to them and see what Board of Trustees members have to say to you about your comments. Tell them what you REALLY think. Don't hold anything back.
You could also begin lobbying (or maybe you have already begun lobbying) to earn an appointment for yourself on the Board of Trustees. Wonder what Furman would be like, if it continued to even exist, if you were to succeed.
I’d love to play every sport at DI and be really good. I live for those rare, rare times when we beat USC or UNC or somebody in football. But c’mon man, have you ever, ever heard of a kid basing his college choice on fcs playoff success? It certainly sounds like the decision has been made. The trustees and president (not me) are killjoys who aren’t gonna let us continue to spend so much on sports. So something has to give.affirm wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 1:58 pmYou may be right.Furmanoid wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:39 pmIf we had highly successful football and basketball it might help with contributions and maybe community relations like you say. But I don’t think it really attracts many students. The ones who are really into sports are going to UGA or Clemson or somewhere. Most of the FU type don’t care at all. Some just care that they have some kind of football game to go to on Saturdays. Having a really good basketball team (way better than we’ve been) might bring in a few. A sport like tennis with a very good camp aimed right at our target demographic may bring in just as many or more. I think our sports are mostly just fun for us to watch.
Also, I doubt you will agree, but it seems that your comments would be good to use in any argument in favor of becoming a Division 3 school.
I’m gonna get abused for this, but after visiting the schools and seeing how it works, I have no huge problem with DIII. In many cases it helps attract students because they want to play, not watch. And since the practice demands are in perspective, they can still have a normal academic experience. The people who tell you not to disparage athletes usually jump in at this point and disparage DIII athletes. But they are not that bad. Just a fraction too small for DI and don’t want to go to the not so awesome schools in DII. Most Furman-like schools are DIII. If we did it we would probably join the conference with Sewannee, Centre, Rhodes, Hendrix, Milsaps, Trinity and Berry. Really good schools. We might play ooc against WL or U of Chicago. Our goal would be to knock off Mt. Union instead of NDSU. I wouldn’t be ashamed of that. But it would cause hate and discontent because it is beneath us. And I would like to see if maybe we can be really good again in DI basketball which might be possible.
I don’t know the answer. But if any classification change is off the table, the choice seems to be either eliminate more men’s minor sports or deplete them of scholarships to a degree that cripples them. And that’s just to get this FIRST round of cuts done. The best option is for the trustees to just get over it, and go back to spending. Covid may kill off so many competing private schools that our problems go away.