• Baseball Dropped (Updated)

 #28184  by Furmanoid
 Thu May 21, 2020 9:15 am
This is a very good article that really has me wondering what’s going on. The comparison of FU’s endowment to others was interesting. Makes you wonder why we need to cut anything at all (and I’m pretty much of an alarmist and biggest penny pincher I know). And I still don’t see any huge savings in cutting a team where 2/3 of the guys were paying to play. Seems like either the leadership really has fallen into irrational endowment worship, or they’d already been reading some pretty scary tea leaves about the future of private colleges before rona even happened. Another possibility is that they think sports are expensive and lowbrow and this crisis is good cover for starting a deemphasis. Hope it’s not that.
MetroMizzy liked this
 #28189  by Affirm
 Thu May 21, 2020 9:33 am
Furmanoid wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:15 am
This is a very good article that really has me wondering what’s going on. The comparison of FU’s endowment to others was interesting. Makes you wonder why we need to cut anything at all (and I’m pretty much of an alarmist and biggest penny pincher I know). And I still don’t see any huge savings in cutting a team where 2/3 of the guys were paying to play. Seems like either the leadership really has fallen into irrational endowment worship, or they’d already been reading some pretty scary tea leaves about the future of private colleges before rona even happened. Another possibility is that they think sports are expensive and lowbrow and this crisis is good cover for starting a deemphasis. Hope it’s not that.
Every use of the non-word “rona” is, to me, a signal that the user does not take the Covid-19 virus seriously enough.
 #28190  by Affirm
 Thu May 21, 2020 9:37 am
Furmanoid wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:15 am
This is a very good article that really has me wondering what’s going on. The comparison of FU’s endowment to others was interesting. Makes you wonder why we need to cut anything at all (and I’m pretty much of an alarmist and biggest penny pincher I know). And I still don’t see any huge savings in cutting a team where 2/3 of the guys were paying to play. Seems like either the leadership really has fallen into irrational endowment worship, or they’d already been reading some pretty scary tea leaves about the future of private colleges before rona even happened. Another possibility is that they think sports are expensive and lowbrow and this crisis is good cover for starting a deemphasis. Hope it’s not that.
Endowment worship by the leadership of an institution like Furman is not at all irrational, and that is true now more than ever but was already true before. Also, the wisest possible use of resources on athletics is not at all irrational.
 #28194  by Furmanoid
 Thu May 21, 2020 10:02 am
I take the novel corona virus serious enough. I’m not going to get it unless there is a mode of transmission nobody knows about. I worked with radiological contamination for 20 years and never got an uptake. Nobody did because we used common sense. Using a bit of gallows humor is ok with all but the humorless. This pandemic would appear to be at worst a 100 yr event. It hit that endowment for at worst $100M. At that rate we should be ok for 600 years. But like I said, maybe the leaders are spooked by the tea leaves(demographics) more than COVID-19 (should be all caps). Just saying it isn’t obvious they needed to do nickel and dime cuts that might not even be cuts.
 #28208  by MetroMizzy
 Thu May 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Fessor - I live in a "hot zone." No I don't wear a mask. The government nor the media is my boss, coach or wife so I guess I'm not coachable nor a team player. I do respect the social distancing when in stores.

Affirm - I went to FU to play baseball. I was a freshman 21 years ago. It was a bonus that it is/was a good academic school. Many things have changed in regards to the usefulness of degrees at a school like Furman since then, In my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and that's fine. I chose Furman over Villanova, Rollins and Elon. I was a kid. It snowed when i visited Nova and it was glorious when I visited Furman AND FU's baseball schedule was legitimately great. I loved the guys on the team. They sold me. I wanted to be a part of that.

Additionally, I did not imply that Title IX should be done away with. It serves a purpose and a good purpose. I just think football should be taken out of the calculation. Again, just my opinion. I'm allowed to have one that doesn't line up with yours.

I'm also allowed to be pissed off and absolutely gutted that the FU baseball program is gone. The press release says something like "we will continue to celebrate the history of the program..." Yeah ok, I guess FU can continue that on but to all of us, the history is gone. My teammate who holds many many pitching records at FU said yesterday that he feels like none of them count anymore. That's how we all feel. The history of the program ended on May 18, 2020.

We are fighting for the program now. If we can't resurrect it, I will never step foot on campus again. I will never stream another football game, basketball game or soccer match. Ever. I'm done. My kids, who I just took to campus for the first time in November will never apply to Furman. I feel like I lost a family member.
Fessor liked this
 #28211  by Fessor
 Thu May 21, 2020 3:15 pm
MetroMizzy wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Fessor - I live in a "hot zone." No I don't wear a mask. The government nor the media is my boss, coach or wife so I guess I'm not coachable nor a team player. I do respect the social distancing when in stores.
You know this, but as a reminder: being a team player is doing what's best for the team; putting the team above yourself. You can't selectively be a team player, when it's convenient.

You're asked to wear a mask to protect others, not to protect yourself.

FYI: Your behavior may be contributing to the hot zone.

FWIW, unless you live in NYC, I live in a "hotter zone".
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 #28212  by fufanatic
 Thu May 21, 2020 3:16 pm
MetroMizzy wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Fessor - I live in a "hot zone." No I don't wear a mask. The government nor the media is my boss, coach or wife so I guess I'm not coachable nor a team player. I do respect the social distancing when in stores.

Affirm - I went to FU to play baseball. I was a freshman 21 years ago. It was a bonus that it is/was a good academic school. Many things have changed in regards to the usefulness of degrees at a school like Furman since then, In my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and that's fine. I chose Furman over Villanova, Rollins and Elon. I was a kid. It snowed when i visited Nova and it was glorious when I visited Furman AND FU's baseball schedule was legitimately great. I loved the guys on the team. They sold me. I wanted to be a part of that.

Additionally, I did not imply that Title IX should be done away with. It serves a purpose and a good purpose. I just think football should be taken out of the calculation. Again, just my opinion. I'm allowed to have one that doesn't line up with yours.

I'm also allowed to be pissed off and absolutely gutted that the FU baseball program is gone. The press release says something like "we will continue to celebrate the history of the program..." Yeah ok, I guess FU can continue that on but to all of us, the history is gone. My teammate who holds many many pitching records at FU said yesterday that he feels like none of them count anymore. That's how we all feel. The history of the program ended on May 18, 2020.

We are fighting for the program now. If we can't resurrect it, I will never step foot on campus again. I will never stream another football game, basketball game or soccer match. Ever. I'm done. My kids, who I just took to campus for the first time in November will never apply to Furman. I feel like I lost a family member.
I can feel your pain coming through my computer screen, and I'm very sorry that you and all the baseball alumni have been gutted in this way. My first hope would be that the program can be saved either now or in the very near future. My back-up hope is that some of the pain goes away over time and you and your family can return to campus and support the university/other sports teams some day.
MetroMizzy liked this
 #28219  by Roundball
 Thu May 21, 2020 6:34 pm
The local media is doing a good job with the focus on the baseball coaches and players. However, I can’t help but to feel bad for the lacrosse team. I am sure they are going through the same emotions. Those guys deserve some love too.
 #28220  by Affirm
 Thu May 21, 2020 8:16 pm
MetroMizzy wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:14 pm
Fessor - I live in a "hot zone." No I don't wear a mask. The government nor the media is my boss, coach or wife so I guess I'm not coachable nor a team player. I do respect the social distancing when in stores.

Affirm - I went to FU to play baseball. I was a freshman 21 years ago. It was a bonus that it is/was a good academic school. Many things have changed in regards to the usefulness of degrees at a school like Furman since then, In my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and that's fine. I chose Furman over Villanova, Rollins and Elon. I was a kid. It snowed when i visited Nova and it was glorious when I visited Furman AND FU's baseball schedule was legitimately great. I loved the guys on the team. They sold me. I wanted to be a part of that.

Additionally, I did not imply that Title IX should be done away with. It serves a purpose and a good purpose. I just think football should be taken out of the calculation. Again, just my opinion. I'm allowed to have one that doesn't line up with yours.

I'm also allowed to be pissed off and absolutely gutted that the FU baseball program is gone. The press release says something like "we will continue to celebrate the history of the program..." Yeah ok, I guess FU can continue that on but to all of us, the history is gone. My teammate who holds many many pitching records at FU said yesterday that he feels like none of them count anymore. That's how we all feel. The history of the program ended on May 18, 2020.

We are fighting for the program now. If we can't resurrect it, I will never step foot on campus again. I will never stream another football game, basketball game or soccer match. Ever. I'm done. My kids, who I just took to campus for the first time in November will never apply to Furman. I feel like I lost a family member.
MetroMizzy,
Why does your teammate who has many many pitching records at FU feel like none of them count any more? What did they count for before May 18, 2920? They still count for that now. In fact, now they count for more - they will now never be broken! All-time records!
If you chose to attend Furman to play baseball, you did get to do the thing for which you chose to attend Furman; so I do not see why you are so angry.
I also do not understand why there are no other reasons for which you feel loyalty to Furman.
You may perhaps have even gotten a scholarship to play baseball at Furman, so I do not understand why you do not have a sense of loyalty for that.
I surmise that 1998-2002 were your years at Furman, based upon your having been a freshman 21 years ago. Seems like a very good time to have been at Furman generally. And I surmise that baseball must have been relatively good at Furman in those years, based upon your teammate having been able to attain many many pitching records, so good that they have stood for many years.
Think about all the people who went to Furman who never had the opportunity to play baseball at Furman, or even in high school or below. Be thankful for your opportunities in life.
I hope you will soon get over your anger and bitterness.
We all have disappointments in life.
"We are fighting for the program now. If we can't resurrect it, I will never step foot on campus again. I will never stream another football game, basketball game or soccer match. Ever. I'm done. My kids, who I just took to campus for the first time in November will never apply to Furman."
So you are going to tell your kids where they can and cannot apply for college? Many people are not successful in doing that! Maybe you will be.
"We are fighting for the program now ... [to] resurrect it ...."
Somewhere on gopaladins.com in the last 48 hours, I read someone's comment that they hoped former players would get together to raise funds or to somehow attempt to lobby to get the decision reversed.
I suggest that you could perhaps be successful in your fight only if you and all others who are in the group of "we" that you mention as "fighting for the program" would do something like the following. My suggestion is that you could gather $100,000,000 or some such amount to donate to Furman in order to endow the baseball program in perpetuity plus 2 other sports or whatever number of other sports needed to assure gender equity. $50,000,000 of the donation could be designated for the endowed baseball program; $50,000,000 if that endowment fund could be suggested and made available to allow the university to have a new Field Hockey program to start up no later than the date on which the baseball program would start back up; and $25,000,000 of the endowed money could be suggested and made available for a new Beach Volleyball program to also start up no later than the date on which the baseball program would start back up.
I realize that you will probably not be able to carry through on my suggestion, even if you wanted to. I highly doubt that you you want to.
However, I think something like this would have to be done in order to solve the financial part of the problem and the gender equity part of the problem, Title IX or no Title IX. With or without Title IX, gender equity is right and is necessary. Good management of resources in difficult times (and in good times) is right and is necessary.
Nothing has been taken away from you.
I hope you will feel better and will be able to move through your grieving process soon.
 #28226  by MetroMizzy
 Fri May 22, 2020 10:24 am
99-03 Actually so maybe my math was off...dropped calculus Freshman year. Lol. Some really good teams and even better people and some all time Furman great baseball players.

I can remember those wins (and some losses) like they were yesterday. There are some losses that still hurt. The 2001 season we were soooo close to winning the regular season championship. We dropped 2 of 3 to VMI at freaking home the first weekend we played under the lights. Ugh. We lost a game at GaSo on a strike three with two outs that was dropped and went through our catchers legs which extended the 9th inning... Hell, Clemson even came to Furman - we lost in extra innings to a Clemson team that was LOADED in front of the largest crowd on campus. We beat USC down in Columbia when they were #5 in the country - that win really started a string of putting those types of teams on notice IMO.

Those were great years at Furman - Men's and Womens Soccer was amazing. The men were one of the best teams in the country. The football team was stacked and lost the NC to Montana - which BTW, about 20 of us went to in Chattanooga. Tennis was awesome! We used to go to as many matches as we could and get rowdy to mess with the other teams. Man, all of the athletes would hang out and go to each others games - it was great. You are right about that!

So thanks for making me think about all of that again...

Some of your questions, I can't answer...did you play in college? If so, you just get it...that's the best I can do for you. I am thankful for the opportunity. Don't assume I'm not. The relationships I have with teammates - they are brothers to me. I am literally closer to a group of guys than I am some of my own siblings. I text with Ron pretty regularly and I was not a Ron lover when I was there but what he did for us to help us grow as men, is not appreciated when your a kid - when you're almost 40 with a family, running a business...it all makes sense. We tell him all the time how grateful we are for his hard work.

I can't share specifics of the movement because I don't really have any other than things are in motion and you make good suggestions. We have called upon the golf program as a bit of a guide in what they were able to do and how they went about it BUT we had a different president at the time...

Hope everyone has a great Memorial Day weekend. Take a minute to remember why we take Monday off.
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 #28230  by fufanatic
 Fri May 22, 2020 12:55 pm
To be honest, I'm not sure another women's sport would need to be added to get baseball back. The ratio would still be 10 women's sports to 9 men's sports. I know the scholarship total would favor the men's side due to 63 football scholarships, but I still think Furman might be compliant. They might have to increase scholarship funding for women's sports, which would go against what Furman was trying to do in decreasing the amount of scholarships offered, but who knows. I again post from the NCAA website on the rules of Title IX:

"Athletics programs are considered educational programs and activities. There are three basic parts of Title IX as it applies to athletics:

- Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play;

- Scholarships: Title IX requires that female and male student-athletes receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and

- Other benefits: Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes.

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX:

For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:

- Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;

- Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;

- Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,

- Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,

- Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above."
 #28234  by Affirm
 Fri May 22, 2020 1:55 pm
MetroMizzy wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:24 am
99-03 Actually so maybe my math was off...dropped calculus Freshman year. Lol. Some really good teams and even better people and some all time Furman great baseball players.

I can remember those wins (and some losses) like they were yesterday. There are some losses that still hurt. The 2001 season we were soooo close to winning the regular season championship. We dropped 2 of 3 to VMI at freaking home the first weekend we played under the lights. Ugh. We lost a game at GaSo on a strike three with two outs that was dropped and went through our catchers legs which extended the 9th inning... Hell, Clemson even came to Furman - we lost in extra innings to a Clemson team that was LOADED in front of the largest crowd on campus. We beat USC down in Columbia when they were #5 in the country - that win really started a string of putting those types of teams on notice IMO.

Those were great years at Furman - Men's and Womens Soccer was amazing. The men were one of the best teams in the country. The football team was stacked and lost the NC to Montana - which BTW, about 20 of us went to in Chattanooga. Tennis was awesome! We used to go to as many matches as we could and get rowdy to mess with the other teams. Man, all of the athletes would hang out and go to each others games - it was great. You are right about that!

So thanks for making me think about all of that again...

Some of your questions, I can't answer...did you play in college? If so, you just get it...that's the best I can do for you. I am thankful for the opportunity. Don't assume I'm not. The relationships I have with teammates - they are brothers to me. I am literally closer to a group of guys than I am some of my own siblings. I text with Ron pretty regularly and I was not a Ron lover when I was there but what he did for us to help us grow as men, is not appreciated when your a kid - when you're almost 40 with a family, running a business...it all makes sense. We tell him all the time how grateful we are for his hard work.

I can't share specifics of the movement because I don't really have any other than things are in motion and you make good suggestions. We have called upon the golf program as a bit of a guide in what they were able to do and how they went about it BUT we had a different president at the time...

Hope everyone has a great Memorial Day weekend. Take a minute to remember why we take Monday off.
I have been unable to find much written about the history of Furman baseball. What I did find included the information that Furman won the Southern Conference baseball tournament in 2 years during all 70 seasons from 1950 to 2019. If there had been no pandemic this year, and if the tournament had occurred this year, I doubt we would have won it in 2020; so I will say 2 years out of 71 years. No info found about any years prior to 1950.
The 2 years were 1991 and 2005.
So yes, the 4 years you were there apparently were 4 years in the middle of a 15-year period bookended by those achievements. If the teams of 1991 and 2005 went to NCAA playoffs, I wonder how well they did.
You mention both the enjoyment you got and the close lifelong relationship to people who are even now closer than your own siblings. You also mentioned the life skills and attitudes that college baseball contributed to you.
You DID receive a lot from Furman baseball. That does not even include any extent, if any, to which being a baseball player contributed to your being able to get scholarships, of any kind, athletic or otherwise, to attend Furman.
I still do not understand why persons, who had good experiences at Furman and who clearly benefited, do not have a sense obligation to support Furman, in good times AND ESPECIALLY in bad times.
Other than that, I will just say thank you for your quite civil response to my previous long email. Most people would probably have been angered by it. If you were angered, you were and are a good person to not lash out at me. I appreciate that.
Still, I really am serious that I believe that Furman should be offering more sports and more scholarships for females, particularly if Furman adds more scholarships for the remaining male sports or if they reinstate baseball and/or men’s lacrosse as scholarship OR as non-scholarship. Field hockey and beach volleyball would be good ones. But whether it’s baseball, lacrosse, football, basketball, swimming & diving, etc., for men or for women, it needs to be supported to the extent that we have the ability to be competitive enough in whatever level we choose to compete - D-1, D-2, D-3, non-scholarship, whatever. The sport needs, on the whole, to represent Furman well and needs to be a good experience for its players/students. Being able to do that, at whatever level, is going to always require money but can never take money away from the overall financial wellness of the university. The university overall is primary. Athletics is not primary. Of course, I know that you know that; but I am trying to make clear my point of view, which may easily seem anti-athletics to persons who are or have been closely Involved in athletics and enjoyed good experiences and ongoing benefits.
Peace.
 #28236  by apaladin
 Fri May 22, 2020 2:09 pm
Metro- it’s good to hear that there may be an effort brewing to save Furman baseball. I heard Mark Ryan at ESPN Upstate say he wanted to start a save Furman baseball campaign. He is on in the afternoon and is a U of a Florida grad and has been here about a year. Always speaks highly of Furman. You might want to contact him. I am sure he could help some. Thank you for your effort.
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