Questions about "the glory years" vs. now

[Furmanoid]

Baron Hill said Williams gave him $1000 no strings attached when he was deciding where to go to college. He said he may very well have gone to Furman anyway. Williams denied this, and Hill is a politician so who knows. Anyway by Hill’s account that was it. Nothing about cars or apartments. Hill was a major recruit- 1st team all state in Indiana, now in the Indiana Hall of Fame. I doubt an unknown from Wade Hampton HS got much more than that, although that was a nice Electra. I know that players used to get “jobs” with boosters back then but everybody did it. I don’t even know if that was illegal then. It shouldn’t be.

[FurmAlum]

I disagree Cavedweller. The Mayes/Leonard teams were good teams but they were not great teams. I attended FU from '72-'76 and used to go to all those games and knew some of the players. We won the SoCon every year playing against East Carolina, William & Mary, Davidson, Richmond, etc. The current SoCon good teams ETSU, UNCG, Woffy, and yes FU are better than the competition that we faced in the 1970's SoCon. When we went up to Charlotte and played UNC and State in the N/S DoubleHeader we regularly got our ass handed to us by 25-30 points in '73, '74, and '75. (Now '78 was different of course).

Our '18 team, last year's team, and this year's team would be very competitive with the 1970's Paladin teams.

[Affirm]

Roundball, I value integrity too but what has that got to do with 1970’s basketball? Who beat Joe Williams in that final? John Wooden. Who had the highest paid players in college basketball? John Wooden. Who finally knocked off UCLA? NC State. Norm Sloan admitted that he paid players. I suppose Lefty was squeaky clean? McGuire? Knight was clean but sadistic. Now if your comment meant you didn’t think Joe paid enough, well ok. That’s probably why Bruce Grimm transferred to Providence.

We were a big time cheating program under Williams. Because others cheated does not make it right. Many schools in the 70's did not cheat or at least I have never heard they did. Tell me about the cheating at William and Mary, Richmond, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, VMI, Citadel, IU, GT, App St, Virginia and many more during the 70's. I believe we are currently experiencing our best years in basketball. GO FU.

It is, to my knowledge, a false statement for one to say we were a cheating program in the 1970’s or 1960’s.

Either this comment is a joke or you are not aware that during Joe Williams time as head coach, Furman basketball players were paid to come to Furman, were paid while at Furman, cars were purchased for them and apartments furnished for them. Others have posted about this in the past and newspaper articles have been written about this. There was a former Williams player that ran for Congress from Ky (I think), that confirmed much of this before he ran around 1980 (I think).

Totally unaware.
My comment is sincere.
Where is your documentation, and how reliable is whatever documentation, if any, that you may have?

[Furmanoid]

Furmalum, this is fun to speculate about. But to think that a team in any sport from almost a half century ago could compete with a 2020 team says a lot. Most of the time in most sports it is assumed that modern athletes are so much better that there wouldn’t be much of a contest. But in this case you would only go so far as to say that the current team would be competitive with the old ones. I think you’re right, but I think if they could do a 7 game series the ancient teams would almost certainly win because they would so completely dominate the boards and the paint. We forget how hard it is to even get a shot off against a team that big because we never see those teams anymore. We’ve also been conditioned to accept sloppy play ( turnovers, bad free throws) because that is the modern aau game. If the current FU teams shot better I would give them the edge, but I figure they wouldn’t have 4 good nights. It would be fun to watch and see what would happen.

[furpop16]

Every so often a trip down memory lane is useful and fun. A word of caution on reminiscing, though, from a hero around these parts - Kirk Gibson - whose sensational '88 WS walk-off homer call by Jack Buck is one of the snippets gracing Dan Scott's intro. A few years ago, the story goes, Gibson spoke to a new crop of Dodgers at Spring Training, telling them "I always hated visits by the old timers and the recollections of their glory days ... I wanted MY team to make our OWN glory days. So don't be asking me about how it was, you guys go out and make YOUR glory days."

Enjoy the ride, gang. CBR & Team are delivering their glory days right now.

[freebird]

I disagree Cavedweller. The Mayes/Leonard teams were good teams but they were not great teams. I attended FU from '72-'76 and used to go to all those games and knew some of the players. We won the SoCon every year playing against East Carolina, William & Mary, Davidson, Richmond, etc. The current SoCon good teams ETSU, UNCG, Woffy, and yes FU are better than the competition that we faced in the 1970's SoCon. When we went up to Charlotte and played UNC and State in the N/S DoubleHeader we regularly got our ass handed to us by 25-30 points in '73, '74, and '75. (Now '78 was different of course).

Our '18 team, last year's team, and this year's team would be very competitive with the 1970's Paladin teams.

Sweet Sixteen in '74. Strong team and much bigger than '18 and '19. I will admit that Barron Hill's wife was a good 7th grade math teacher. Although I don't gamble I would put my money on the '74 team over todays if I was a betting man. No disrespect to the 'Dins team of today.

[GOAT]

Roundball, I value integrity too but what has that got to do with 1970’s basketball? Who beat Joe Williams in that final? John Wooden. Who had the highest paid players in college basketball? John Wooden. Who finally knocked off UCLA? NC State. Norm Sloan admitted that he paid players. I suppose Lefty was squeaky clean? McGuire? Knight was clean but sadistic. Now if your comment meant you didn’t think Joe paid enough, well ok. That’s probably why Bruce Grimm transferred to Providence.

We were a big time cheating program under Williams. Because others cheated does not make it right. Many schools in the 70's did not cheat or at least I have never heard they did. Tell me about the cheating at William and Mary, Richmond, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, VMI, Citadel, IU, GT, App St, Virginia and many more during the 70's. I believe we are currently experiencing our best years in basketball. GO FU.

It is, to my knowledge, a false statement for one to say we were a cheating program in the 1970’s or 1960’s.

Either this comment is a joke or you are not aware that during Joe Williams time as head coach, Furman basketball players were paid to come to Furman, were paid while at Furman, cars were purchased for them and apartments furnished for them. Others have posted about this in the past and newspaper articles have been written about this. There was a former Williams player that ran for Congress from Ky (I think), that confirmed much of this before he ran around 1980 (I think).

Totally unaware.
My comment is sincere.
Where is your documentation, and how reliable is whatever documentation, if any, that you may have?

I was at Furman from 1980- 1984. I knew players that played for Joe WILLIAMS. Several told me what was going on. See post by gman, Fessor and MrMoto on March 8, 2018 under thread "FU vs ETSU (Semifinals) March 4th, 6:30." I do not know how to move those post to here. There are post from others as well in that thread.

[Affirm]

Roundball, I value integrity too but what has that got to do with 1970’s basketball? Who beat Joe Williams in that final? John Wooden. Who had the highest paid players in college basketball? John Wooden. Who finally knocked off UCLA? NC State. Norm Sloan admitted that he paid players. I suppose Lefty was squeaky clean? McGuire? Knight was clean but sadistic. Now if your comment meant you didn’t think Joe paid enough, well ok. That’s probably why Bruce Grimm transferred to Providence.

We were a big time cheating program under Williams. Because others cheated does not make it right. Many schools in the 70's did not cheat or at least I have never heard they did. Tell me about the cheating at William and Mary, Richmond, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, VMI, Citadel, IU, GT, App St, Virginia and many more during the 70's. I believe we are currently experiencing our best years in basketball. GO FU.

It is, to my knowledge, a false statement for one to say we were a cheating program in the 1970’s or 1960’s.

Either this comment is a joke or you are not aware that during Joe Williams time as head coach, Furman basketball players were paid to come to Furman, were paid while at Furman, cars were purchased for them and apartments furnished for them. Others have posted about this in the past and newspaper articles have been written about this. There was a former Williams player that ran for Congress from Ky (I think), that confirmed much of this before he ran around 1980 (I think).

Totally unaware.
My comment is sincere.
Where is your documentation, and how reliable is whatever documentation, if any, that you may have?

I was at Furman from 1980- 1984. I knew players that played for Joe WILLIAMS. Several told me what was going on. See post by gman, Fessor and MrMoto on March 8, 2018 under thread "FU vs ETSU (Semifinals) March 4th, 6:30." I do not know how to move those post to here. There are post from others as well in that thread.

I have not called you a liar. At the same time, I will say:
1. Again, I was not aware.
2. IF it did happen, it was NOT publicly alleged, charged, acknowledged, penalized nor even publicly known. IF it did happen, I believe it must have been relatively minor, including in comparison to what was going on elsewhere in college basketball programs that were winning.

[cavedweller2]

No Probation. No issue. Nothing to see here.

[Davemeister]

There is a term which explains how such things could happen at a school like Furman. It's called "willful ignorance". A willingness to look the other way or sweep things under the rug.

Everybody liked Big Time basketball and NOBODY wanted to rock the boat by pointing out inconvenient truths.

[Furmanoid]

Now that we’ve smeared Gordon Blackwell and John Johns there should be no complaints about Shi and Smolla.

[Flagman]

How many of the players Joe Williams brought to Furman during "The Glory Years" would be admitted to FU today?

What price "Glory"?

I wonder how many of us who graduated from Furman would be admitted today? And, how many of us could participate in college athletics, go to class, practice and travel, and GRADUATE!

[Davemeister]

Good question!

[GOAT]

Now that we’ve smeared Gordon Blackwell and John Johns there should be no complaints about Shi and Smolla.

I am pretty sure it was during Dr. John's tenure that the cheating was stopped. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Roundball]

Now that we’ve smeared Gordon Blackwell and John Johns there should be no complaints about Shi and Smolla.

I am pretty sure it was during Dr. John's tenure that the cheating was stopped. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Correct. Joe Williams only lasted a year after Dr. Johns arrival.