It was sad what we were doing in the program during that time. Not something we should be proud of or hold up as the way to run a program. Based on your post, I assume you know what FU basketball was doing back then.
FU vs. ETSU (Semifinals March 4th 6:30pm)
First I've ever heard of shenanigans going on back in the day. Disappointing, but can't imagine we were the only ones. And the NCAA wasn't nearly as regulated then, so no telling how much of it was actually against the rules.
However, I truly believe there's a happy medium. You can't convince me the two choices are cheat and win or be clean and lose.
My take is that back then the NCAA rules were like the speed limit. Everyone broke them to a degree but only a few got pulled over. I think it's different today, even with all the shenanigans that have come to light. I think that despite the Adidas scandal the sport is cleaner overall. A little asterisk goes next to those years in the Furman record book for me.
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IT WAS GLORIOUS!!!!!!!!
FUBeAR wrote: ↑Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:19 pmRonald White could pick a quarter off the top of the backboard.Paul C wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:05 pmNah...don’t want to reassess...very happy with my memories from those days...FU beat UNC & NC State on back-to-back nights the weekend after I signed with FU as a Raleigh, NC HS kid. Then watching Bruce Grimm (on my Recruiting visit), Stitch Moore, the Daniel brothers, Ronald White, Dale Crowe, Michael Hunt, George Singleton, et al gettin’ after it vs. numerous ACC Teams, DePaul, etc.AllKnighter wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:43 amWhile we may “purchase” a post season tourney bid, that’s effectively what we did in the 70s too. Except back then the bags full of cash went to the players not the tourney organizers.fufanatic wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:21 pmI fully expect us to purchase another post-season tourney bid. That will enable Bob Richey to claim a school record 3rd consecutive post-season appearance. I was appalled to to see the recent post-season appearances compared (see Feb. 20 Senior Day Paladin Points) to the teams of the 70's that played in the NCAA tourney. Give me a break, we are not close to those great teams. Same goes for 4-year win totals. The 2018 class lost 11 more games than any of the 8 teams that they were compared to. I'll have to check to see how many times we beat the likes of Bob Jones, Montreat and Piedmont International back in the 70's and early 80's.
When Tates Locke says he lost some high profile recruits to FU because “Furman paid more”, we really need to reassess that era.
Nope, I’m good.
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean.
'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.”
Josey Wales
'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.”
Josey Wales
I appreciate the comments and insight into the 70's teams. Could someone please provide a little detail on the alleged cheating? I can find no evidence of NCAA or SoCon sanctions on-line, but that was a long time ago and information can be scarce. Thanks for sharing!
Everybody knew Joe Williams and a few financial supporters were paying players. A few of those players rarely attended classes. Had Joe Williams stayed, Furman would have been on probation within a year. It was a joke, but it sure was fun!AllKnighter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:49 pmI appreciate the comments and insight into the 70's teams. Could someone please provide a little detail on the alleged cheating? I can find no evidence of NCAA or SoCon sanctions on-line, but that was a long time ago and information can be scarce. Thanks for sharing!
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I had no classes at FU in the late 70’s/early 80’s where attendance was required, except, maybe, Military Science/Lab. Take the tests, turn in the assignments/papers & accept whatever might have been included/graded as class participation. Lots of Marvelous Monday’s, Terrific Tuesday’s, Wonderful Wednesday’s, Thrilling Thursday’s, and Fabulous Friday’s on my attendance record. Just checked the front & back of my Furman diploma. No attendance record shown.
And I saw Mel Daniel in my Latin classes every time on the odd days that I decided to show up. Mrs. Anderson, the Prof (and a really good one), used to say that Mel was a “Latin Scholar.”
And I saw Mel Daniel in my Latin classes every time on the odd days that I decided to show up. Mrs. Anderson, the Prof (and a really good one), used to say that Mel was a “Latin Scholar.”
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NCAA MANUAL
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
20.10.1 ...intercollegiate athletics...competition in amateur athletics…
20.10.1.2 …maintaining a line of demarcation between student-athletes who participate in the Collegiate Model and athletes competing in the professional model
More than a few. There were parties for different levels of "donors": A-lister parties; B-lister parties, etc. where the proverbial hat would be passed.gman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:17 pmEverybody knew Joe Williams and a few financial supporters were paying players. A few of those players rarely attended classes. Had Joe Williams stayed, Furman would have been on probation within a year. It was a joke, but it sure was fun!AllKnighter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:49 pmI appreciate the comments and insight into the 70's teams. Could someone please provide a little detail on the alleged cheating? I can find no evidence of NCAA or SoCon sanctions on-line, but that was a long time ago and information can be scarce. Thanks for sharing!
As one who contributed to it, during the years Joe Williams was at Furman, we cheated on a level equal to (if not greater) than any other college/university in the NCAA. Other than (i.e. to my knowledge) providing “women” (as the University of Louisville recently did), we gave players a signing “bonus”, relatively new cars, free laundry service, free dry-cleaning service, spending money, free “top-of- the line” clothes, etc.AllKnighter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:49 pmI appreciate the comments and insight into the 70's teams. Could someone please provide a little detail on the alleged cheating? I can find no evidence of NCAA or SoCon sanctions on-line, but that was a long time ago and information can be scarce. Thanks for sharing!
Below is an article from the “New York Times” (February 20,1982 edition) about Baron Hill who was a candidate for the US House of Representatives in 1982. As you review the article, note that Baron received $1,000 when he signed in 1971. Today, inflation adjusted, the $1,000 would be worth about $6,200. When the article was published, we were all afraid Furman would be investigated by the NCAA and put on probation. Since Baron was running for congress (i.e. U. S. House of Representatives), we believed he was “coming clean” about Furman before one of his opponents brought it up.
February 20, 1982
Recruiting Payoff by Coach Is Reported
AP
SEYMOUR, Ind., Feb. 19— Baron Hill, a former basketball player for Furman University, said today that while he was being recruited 11 years ago he was given $1,000 by Joe Williams, who at the time was Furman's head coach.
Williams is now head coach at Florida State, where a university committee is investigating charges made by a former player of payments to athletes, irregular medical practices and other improprieties.
Hill said in a telephone interview that he had not mentioned the payment in the intervening years because no one had ever asked him. ''But I can say it probably happened to some other college basketball players under Williams,'' Hill said.
Williams coached at Furman, in Greenville, S.C., from 1970 to 1978. He issued a brief statement through Florida State today that said: ''Baron Hill was recruited by Furman 11 years ago. If I know Baron, it sounds like he was misquoted.''
But Hill, who is 28 years old and owns an insurance and real estate firm in Seymour, a town in southern Indiana, said Williams ''gave me $1,000, with no strings attached, to use how I wanted to use it.''
''It probably tipped the scale somewhat,'' Hill said, ''but it was not the only reason I went to Furman. Furman was a good academic school, and Williams had a good reputation as a basketball coach.''
Williams, en route with his team for a game in Cincinnati today, could not be reached for further comment. Advised that several former Furman players had been questioned by reporters and that he was the only one to report having received money, Hill said: ''They'll have to answer their own questions. There would be no purpose served for me to confirm or deny what they said.''
In another development, a De Paul basketball player, Raymond McCoy, was quoted by The Chicago Sun-Times as verifying testimony before Florida State's committee of inquiry that he had been visited by a female student from Florida State at the time an assistant coach was recruiting him. But, McCoy was quoted as saying, there was nothing improper in the visit.
The newspaper article appeared one day after Alexia Robinson, a former cheerleader at Florida State, appeared before the committee of inquiry and said that Frank Gilmore, the assistant coach who was trying to recruit McCoy, took her on a 1979 recruiting trip to Chicago.
James Bozeman, the former player whose charges brought on the investigation, made his first appearance at the committee's hearings Thursday, but he did not speak. He has said the committee is biased.
• Copyright 2018 The New York Times Company
Baron went on to serve many years in the US House of Representatives. You can find out more below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Hill_(politician)
Thanks to all who responded with their insight. I was not close to the program in the 70's, but as a young basketball fan in NC, was keenly aware that Furman could beat any of the ACC teams I followed on any given night. I never suspected Furman of cheating. Depressing.76MrMoto wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:16 pmAs one who contributed to it, during the years Joe Williams was at Furman, we cheated on a level equal to (if not greater) than any other college/university in the NCAA. Other than (i.e. to my knowledge) providing “women” (as the University of Louisville recently did), we gave players a signing “bonus”, relatively new cars, free laundry service, free dry-cleaning service, spending money, free “top-of- the line” clothes, etc.AllKnighter wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:49 pmI appreciate the comments and insight into the 70's teams. Could someone please provide a little detail on the alleged cheating? I can find no evidence of NCAA or SoCon sanctions on-line, but that was a long time ago and information can be scarce. Thanks for sharing!
Below is an article from the “New York Times” (February 20,1982 edition) about Baron Hill who was a candidate for the US House of Representatives in 1982. As you review the article, note that Baron received $1,000 when he signed in 1971. Today, inflation adjusted, the $1,000 would be worth about $6,200. When the article was published, we were all afraid Furman would be investigated by the NCAA and put on probation. Since Baron was running for congress (i.e. U. S. House of Representatives), we believed he was “coming clean” about Furman before one of his opponents brought it up.
February 20, 1982
Recruiting Payoff by Coach Is Reported
AP
SEYMOUR, Ind., Feb. 19— Baron Hill, a former basketball player for Furman University, said today that while he was being recruited 11 years ago he was given $1,000 by Joe Williams, who at the time was Furman's head coach.
Williams is now head coach at Florida State, where a university committee is investigating charges made by a former player of payments to athletes, irregular medical practices and other improprieties.
Hill said in a telephone interview that he had not mentioned the payment in the intervening years because no one had ever asked him. ''But I can say it probably happened to some other college basketball players under Williams,'' Hill said.
Williams coached at Furman, in Greenville, S.C., from 1970 to 1978. He issued a brief statement through Florida State today that said: ''Baron Hill was recruited by Furman 11 years ago. If I know Baron, it sounds like he was misquoted.''
But Hill, who is 28 years old and owns an insurance and real estate firm in Seymour, a town in southern Indiana, said Williams ''gave me $1,000, with no strings attached, to use how I wanted to use it.''
''It probably tipped the scale somewhat,'' Hill said, ''but it was not the only reason I went to Furman. Furman was a good academic school, and Williams had a good reputation as a basketball coach.''
Williams, en route with his team for a game in Cincinnati today, could not be reached for further comment. Advised that several former Furman players had been questioned by reporters and that he was the only one to report having received money, Hill said: ''They'll have to answer their own questions. There would be no purpose served for me to confirm or deny what they said.''
In another development, a De Paul basketball player, Raymond McCoy, was quoted by The Chicago Sun-Times as verifying testimony before Florida State's committee of inquiry that he had been visited by a female student from Florida State at the time an assistant coach was recruiting him. But, McCoy was quoted as saying, there was nothing improper in the visit.
The newspaper article appeared one day after Alexia Robinson, a former cheerleader at Florida State, appeared before the committee of inquiry and said that Frank Gilmore, the assistant coach who was trying to recruit McCoy, took her on a 1979 recruiting trip to Chicago.
James Bozeman, the former player whose charges brought on the investigation, made his first appearance at the committee's hearings Thursday, but he did not speak. He has said the committee is biased.
• Copyright 2018 The New York Times Company
Baron went on to serve many years in the US House of Representatives. You can find out more below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Hill_(politician)
Baron was vastly overpaid.
BTW, I don't see anywhere in the article where Baron made an attempt to return the money or took ownership of his actions.
Minor point, but I don't think you are correct in implying we were among the worst at this sort of thing (unless, of course, you were an NCAA compliance officer and know better). I doubt, but cannot prove, FU was worse than big schools with much deeper pocketed donors. Everything else you said is factually accurate to my knowledge and I would agree that all resources that could be utilized likely were; the intent was there. (BTW, I was a kid but the family "contributed" as you did. Money well spent - with the exception of Baron Hill.)
BTW, I don't see anywhere in the article where Baron made an attempt to return the money or took ownership of his actions.
Minor point, but I don't think you are correct in implying we were among the worst at this sort of thing (unless, of course, you were an NCAA compliance officer and know better). I doubt, but cannot prove, FU was worse than big schools with much deeper pocketed donors. Everything else you said is factually accurate to my knowledge and I would agree that all resources that could be utilized likely were; the intent was there. (BTW, I was a kid but the family "contributed" as you did. Money well spent - with the exception of Baron Hill.)
Last edited by Fessor on Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
I guess my ignorance was bliss! I sure enjoyed listening to them on the radio and watching them on TV when they were on TV.
I vividly remember the collective spontaneous "wow" in the Auditorium in his first game when he went up for an alley oop.cavedweller2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:29 pmRonald White could pick a quarter off the top of the backboard.
WOW. I am truly shocked by the revelations in this thread. I genuinely thought Furman was squeaky clean always. Was there ever any allegations about point shaving, etc. by those tainted teams? I know personally that once a school gets a rep that players are getting paid, not having to attend classes, etc. they become targets for gamblers. After the big scandals in New York, we stopped playing at Madison Square Garden in an naïve attempt to keep the kids away from the "wiseguys". All that did was hurt recruiting big time and drop us down to mid major status. Kids know darn well its wrong to take money from the coach and once they do, it's a short walk to taking dough from a guy in a fedora for not winning by as much as you could have.
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