Put up or Shut up

[gman]

Again, back to basketball please. Move the lacrosse discussion to whatever forum it belongs to. This forum and thread is about Furman basketball.

[FUBeAR]

This forum and thread is about Furman basketball.

[Jasper]

Let me offer a slightly different take on lacrosse roll out.
“Wealthy alumni offers several million dollars to start lacrosse at Furman that includes a million or so to turf football field . Frustrated athletic fans who have witnessed previous administrations short change athletics get in uproar that new fangled yankee sport is getting some money. Much teeth gnashing ensues because as we all know if you throw money at a sport success has to be automatic ( our Baseball program with its multi million dollar field house has sure proven that ). Over priced Lacrosse HC fails to win and demand s that carpet bagger sport be removed( by folks who have never watched a game ) grows. ( please note that I grew up in Onslow County NC so I can recognize “them” yankee interlopers when they try to sully our original southern sports) “.
Let’s get a good young coach and start fresh. By the way our lady’s program has a good young Coach and has been pretty successful losing to Mercer in double O T in Socon finals.

Onslow County? Oh...the big city (Jacksonville) and all of that fast-livin' sinnin' around those crazy gyrines at Camp LeJeune. You might as well have grown up in Brooklyn. My family is from your next-door-neighbor to the NW, the real redneck southern hick heaven of Duplin County, NC. Beulaville, mostly.

If I'm running PR for FU Men's LAX, I STOP TALKING about how I'm recruiting where I can find smart kids with money (and they ain't where you people live)...and START TALKING about how fast there great HS programs in the South - (Like the ones I know in ATL) like Lambert, Lassiter, Milton, Roswell, Blessed Trinity, and Harrison (I think) are growing and turning out really excellent players with great academics. Trust me, their parents have money too.

Build yourself a regional fanbase - the more local the better...and then run the heck out of summer camps....even if you don't make any money on them....just to get as many kids to come as you can....

....and sure if you have some kids from MD, DE, PA, NJ, and NY that WANT to come to Furman....bring 'em on. Sell the weather, the campus, the pretty girls (oops...can't sell that anymore, right? sorry)

And I start having the LAX Bro's show up and show out at the other sports events....like the Football Players do at Hoops now...and I think the LAX Bro's are doing that too...which is good....they need to do the same @ Football games....and don't say....Football Players should do it for them 1st - nope - up to the "New Kids" to 'make friends'....

Yeah - prolly need a new Coach.....I don't know, but I've heard from a few peeps that they current one may have rubbed a few folks the wrong way a few too many times. His words at events, along with some of the fans' commentary, and other FU peeps I know gave me the 'rollout impression' I described. Had nothing (in my case) to do with where FU was or was perceived to be spending money. I just know that I like watching Lacrosse and I know a lot of smart kids, from families with money, that are/were good LAX Bro's....but I sure didn't get the impression that I or they were welcome to be part of FU Men's LAX.

Like I said, the rollout sucked. Despite your acute case of southern paranoia, I understand how you feel. The whole thing was an exercise in how to do things wrong. But that is on one guy, not the sport and the kids that play.

[DungeonRealm]

Have never been to a live game so can't speak to that, but my take on watching several games on tv is that lacrosse is a terrible sport for TV, ball is too small and very diffucult to track, a sport like that will have trouble growing any more than what it is already at (I believe FU gets about 200-300 attendance per game)
Unlike golf which is also with a small ball, lacrosse is fast paced which makes tracking the small ball on tv even tougher

Now my apologies to gman for straying off Bball

[FUBeAR]

Let me offer a slightly different take on lacrosse roll out.
“Wealthy alumni offers several million dollars to start lacrosse at Furman that includes a million or so to turf football field . Frustrated athletic fans who have witnessed previous administrations short change athletics get in uproar that new fangled yankee sport is getting some money. Much teeth gnashing ensues because as we all know if you throw money at a sport success has to be automatic ( our Baseball program with its multi million dollar field house has sure proven that ). Over priced Lacrosse HC fails to win and demand s that carpet bagger sport be removed( by folks who have never watched a game ) grows. ( please note that I grew up in Onslow County NC so I can recognize “them” yankee interlopers when they try to sully our original southern sports) “.
Let’s get a good young coach and start fresh. By the way our lady’s program has a good young Coach and has been pretty successful losing to Mercer in double O T in Socon finals.

Onslow County? Oh...the big city (Jacksonville) and all of that fast-livin' sinnin' around those crazy gyrines at Camp LeJeune. You might as well have grown up in Brooklyn. My family is from your next-door-neighbor to the NW, the real redneck southern hick heaven of Duplin County, NC. Beulaville, mostly.

If I'm running PR for FU Men's LAX, I STOP TALKING about how I'm recruiting where I can find smart kids with money (and they ain't where you people live)...and START TALKING about how fast there great HS programs in the South - (Like the ones I know in ATL) like Lambert, Lassiter, Milton, Roswell, Blessed Trinity, and Harrison (I think) are growing and turning out really excellent players with great academics. Trust me, their parents have money too.

Build yourself a regional fanbase - the more local the better...and then run the heck out of summer camps....even if you don't make any money on them....just to get as many kids to come as you can....

....and sure if you have some kids from MD, DE, PA, NJ, and NY that WANT to come to Furman....bring 'em on. Sell the weather, the campus, the pretty girls (oops...can't sell that anymore, right? sorry)

And I start having the LAX Bro's show up and show out at the other sports events....like the Football Players do at Hoops now...and I think the LAX Bro's are doing that too...which is good....they need to do the same @ Football games....and don't say....Football Players should do it for them 1st - nope - up to the "New Kids" to 'make friends'....

Yeah - prolly need a new Coach.....I don't know, but I've heard from a few peeps that they current one may have rubbed a few folks the wrong way a few too many times. His words at events, along with some of the fans' commentary, and other FU peeps I know gave me the 'rollout impression' I described. Had nothing (in my case) to do with where FU was or was perceived to be spending money. I just know that I like watching Lacrosse and I know a lot of smart kids, from families with money, that are/were good LAX Bro's....but I sure didn't get the impression that I or they were welcome to be part of FU Men's LAX.

Like I said, the rollout sucked. Despite your acute case of southern paranoia, I understand how you feel. The whole thing was an exercise in how to do things wrong. But that is on one guy, not the sport and the kids that play.

Southern paranoia?

Paranoia is defined as delusional. How many times did ‘we’ ACTUALLY read & hear that adding lacrosse was going to give Furman access to students from the mid-Atlantic & northeast; students with strong academics & families that could afford to pay for their students to attend Furman. There is no reasonable way to NOT interpret these comments as also stating, ‘we can’t (or don’t want to) find students like this in our traditionally heavily southeastern footprint.’ That’s not paranoia. That’s recognition of being patronized.

As most know, I was ‘hanging around’ Mercer a lot during the years shortly after they added Men’s LAX (2011) & when they added Women’s LAX (2015). In my several conversations about adding LAX with the highest level officials at the University, within the Athletic Department, and within Athletics Fund Raising (each of whom I came to know fairly well during those years), not one of them ever mentioned anything like attracting smarter, richer kids from parts of the country outside of their norms. Maybe that was their primary goal also, but I NEVER heard or saw it mentioned...and you can say...’yeah, but...1) Mercer is not as expensive as Furman and/or 2) Mercer’s academics are not as strong as Furman’s’....OK...maybe so...but not by that much in either case; certainly not enough to warrant the vast discrepancy in ‘roll-out’ approaches/communications that I perceived.

So....anyway...love watching LAX...love FU adding & growing in any & all ways. Just don’t tell or show (or even seem to intimate) that ‘you’ (it was certainly more than ‘1 guy’) don’t really want ‘my kind’ around anymore when ‘you’ do it.

[Fessor]

LAX bro's saved FU basketball's season 3-4 years back, as I recall. Provided a spirited atmosphere and (successfully) contested opponents FT's long before other students showed up at games.

[JohnW]

What prompted my original post was a feeling, notion, worry, that Furman is at a decision point with our basketball program. The coach has been adamant that more resources are needed to progress. I believe a greater commitment from the university is necessary, so I looked at the pie and the under performing sports to me are baseball and lax. Baseball to me by tradition and culture is more important to maintain. College baseball is just a bigger deal that college lax. College basketball dwarfs both.

The scenario I fear is one where although an effort is made it falls short. Coach leaves takes his best assistants with him , the product declines, and soon Furman is back to mediocrity. Whereas if he gets what he needs Furman becomes a consistent top 20 mid-major with all that goes with such recognition. An investment in basketball will payoff much more than anything a lax program brings. Making the tourney, even NIT, brings more exposure than making a lax final four. Basketball will be covered locally, on ESPN, in what's left of the newspapers. Pete Yannity might mention a final four lax appearance, might.

This is not to throw shade at lax as a sport or doubt it's positive impact on Furman. I just want to consider where are the resources more useful. Larry Davis used to say we're on the bank of the river, we just need whatever his excuse of the moment was to reach the other side. Well, today I think we are actually there. This season proved to me that Greenville will support this team, surprised me. It seems obvious to me that, if necessary, moving mens lax to D2 like rugby in order to attain a consistently successful D1 mens basketball program would be a wise move.

[Affirm]

What prompted my original post was a feeling, notion, worry, that Furman is at a decision point with our basketball program. The coach has been adamant that more resources are needed to progress. I believe a greater commitment from the university is necessary, so I looked at the pie and the under performing sports to me are baseball and lax. Baseball to me by tradition and culture is more important to maintain. College baseball is just a bigger deal that college lax. College basketball dwarfs both.

The scenario I fear is one where although an effort is made it falls short. Coach leaves takes his best assistants with him , the product declines, and soon Furman is back to mediocrity. Whereas if he gets what he needs Furman becomes a consistent top 20 mid-major with all that goes with such recognition. An investment in basketball will payoff much more than anything a lax program brings. Making the tourney, even NIT, brings more exposure than making a lax final four. Basketball will be covered locally, on ESPN, in what's left of the newspapers. Pete Yannity might mention a final four lax appearance, might.

This is not to throw shade at lax as a sport or doubt it's positive impact on Furman. I just want to consider where are the resources more useful. Larry Davis used to say we're on the bank of the river, we just need whatever his excuse of the moment was to reach the other side. Well, today I think we are actually there. This season proved to me that Greenville will support this team, surprised me. It seems obvious to me that, if necessary, moving mens lax to D2 like rugby in order to attain a consistently successful D1 mens basketball program would be a wise move.

I believe that by NCAA rules, we would not be allowed to have it D2. The change would have to be to “club”, I believe. Correct that if I’m wrong.

[apaladin]

That is correct. That is why D1 schools can no longer play D3 football even though that is what it is you just can't call it that.

[Affirm]

That is correct. That is why D1 schools can no longer play D3 football even though that is what it is you just can't call it that.

Please explain.
Are you referring to D1 FCS schools as “D3”?
What is the “it” in your post?
I’m not arguing, just wanting clarification, please.

[FUBeAR]

That is correct. That is why D1 schools can no longer play D3 football even though that is what it is you just can't call it that.

Please explain.
Are you referring to D1 FCS schools as “D3”?
What is the “it” in your post?
I’m not arguing, just wanting clarification, please.

99.99% sure that the reference is to schools playing Football in the D1 FCS Pioneer Football League (PFL) that do not provide Athletics Scholarships to their Football Players.

Current members
Institution Location Founded First Football Year Type Enrollment Joined Nickname Primary Conference while joining the PFL Current Primary Conference

Butler University Indianapolis, Indiana 1855 1887 Private 3,897 1991 Bulldogs Horizon Big East

Davidson College Davidson, North Carolina 1837 1897 Private 1,950 2001 Wildcats SoCon Atlantic 10 (A-10)

University of Dayton Dayton, Ohio 1850 1905 Private 8,353 1991 Flyers Horizon Atlantic 10 (A-10)

Drake University Des Moines, Iowa 1881 1883 Private 3,164 1991 Bulldogs Missouri Valley

Jacksonville University Jacksonville, Florida 1934 1934 (1998) Private 7,426 2001 Dolphins Atlantic Sun (ASUN)

Marist College Poughkeepsie, New York 1929 1978 Private 6,200 2009 Red Foxes MAAC

Morehead State University Morehead, Kentucky 1922 1927 Public 11,358 2001 Eagles OVC

University of San Diego San Diego, California 1949 1956 Private 4,904 1992 Toreros WCC

Stetson University DeLand, Florida 1883 1901 (2013) Private 4,330 2013 Hatters Atlantic Sun (ASUN)

Valparaiso University Valparaiso, Indiana 1859 1919 Private 2,917 1991 Crusaders Summit Missouri Valley

Future member
Institution Location Founded First Football Year Type Enrollment Year Joining Nickname Current Primary Conference

Presbyterian College Clinton, South Carolina 1880 1913 Private 1,172 2021 Blue Hose Big South

[MNORM]

That is correct. That is why D1 schools can no longer play D3 football even though that is what it is you just can't call it that.

Please explain.
Are you referring to D1 FCS schools as “D3”?
What is the “it” in your post?
I’m not arguing, just wanting clarification, please.

This comes up about once a year. We cannot have scholarship sports at Furman on any other level than D-I. And yes...that is the primary reason the Pioneer Football League was created. NCAA rules changed in 1991, which required Division I schools to conduct all sports at the Division I level by 1993. So if any of our sports are going to "change" a level it would be down to a club sport, like Rugby.

[Top25]

Johns Hopkins fields 24 varsity teams, 22 of which compete at the NCAA Division III level. The other two, men’s and women’s lacrosse, both compete in Division I. Seventeen of our programs are members of the Centennial Conference.

[apaladin]

Johns Hopkins fields 24 varsity teams, 22 of which compete at the NCAA Division III level. The other two, men’s and women’s lacrosse, both compete in Division I. Seventeen of our programs are members of the Centennial Conference.

Johns Hopkins is not a D1 school. You can play up but not down. There are several non-D1 schools that play D1 hockey for example. Again if you are a D1 school all athletic teams must compete under the D1 umbrella.

[Affirm]

That is correct. That is why D1 schools can no longer play D3 football even though that is what it is you just can't call it that.

Please explain.
Are you referring to D1 FCS schools as “D3”?
What is the “it” in your post?
I’m not arguing, just wanting clarification, please.

This comes up about once a year. We cannot have scholarship sports at Furman on any other level than D-I. And yes...that is the primary reason the Pioneer Football League was created. NCAA rules changed in 1991, which required Division I schools to conduct all sports at the Division I level by 1993. So if any of our sports are going to "change" a level it would be down to a club sport, like Rugby.

apaladin posted 1:04 a.m 5/25 that “...D1 schools can no longer play D3 football though that is what it is ...” could be interpreted to mean that he was saying that most FCS football is D3 quality, not just Pioneer League FCS football. And I of course realize you cannot classify to compete in a different Division than your classification. Still a little unclear how JHU gets to do that. How can any D3 or D2 school (like JHU) be classified higher in any individual sport(s) they may wish to be classified higher in? Seems contradictory, at least confusing.