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Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:43 am
by gofurman
FUBeAR and I had a little fun on the interweb here a few days back on this subject. And Flag backed FUBeAR ETC. Well, , I saw two teams of relatively similar talent and left feeling one was far better coached today eh??? I noticed that very subject - backing my theory that Mercer is better coached - even has its own thread on here now !,
In other news some people used to defend Lamb. With all due respect, Mercer is a LOT better since he is gone. It’s true. Last time he was there in 2019 Furman CRUSHED Mercer 45-10. My how coaches make a difference
(Some luck today ? Sure. That four tip pass that Mercer caught. Dang it. But Mercer was the better team )
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 am
by tim
Cronic is a great coach anyway, but give him an extra week to prepare for a team and he will be extra tough. What was that one play he kept going to on 3rd and long? Jet sweep maybe? He must have seen some tendency. We have an extra week to prepare for Woffy so we should expect the same preparation and a win.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:11 am
by Furmanoid
gofurman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:43 am
FUBeAR and I had a little fun on the interweb here a few days back on this subject. And Flag backed FUBeAR ETC. Well, , I saw two teams of relatively similar talent and left feeling one was far better coached today eh??? I noticed that very subject - backing my theory that Mercer is better coached - even has its own thread on here now !,
In other news some people used to defend Lamb. With all due respect, Mercer is a LOT better since he is gone. It’s true. Last time he was there in 2019 Furman CRUSHED Mercer 45-10. My how coaches make a difference
(Some luck today ? Sure. That four tip pass that Mercer caught. Dang it. But Mercer was the better team )
I think your argument you made the other day was based on the assumption that we had superior talent. So if we lost, coaching was likely the problem. I pretty much agree with the logic, but after watching that game I don’t agree with the underlying assumption. They looked more talented.
And they also looked better coached. They certainly executed well. From the start they looked bouncy and excited and happy to be there. Our guys look like they’re thinking “Oh no, we have another game today?” They looked like they always knew what they were doing, our guys especially on offense always seem sort of hesitant and confused.
The counter argument made against you was that the outcome would only mean that Mercer was better in that game on that day, but I think it’s pretty clear how a best of 5 would go.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:28 am
by FUBeAR
tim wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 am
Cronic is a great coach anyway, but give him an extra week to prepare for a team and he will be extra tough. What was that one play he kept going to on 3rd and long? Jet sweep maybe? He must have seen some tendency. We have an extra week to prepare for Woffy so we should expect the same preparation and a win.
FUBeAR believes you’re talking about their Buck Sweep play…Mercer has 2 Xfer OG’s - 1 from VT & 1 from L-R…who are both stout & very exp’d, VERY athletic, love to pull, run, and lead block. They are able to ‘set the edge’ with 2 athletic blockers - a TE & H-Back (Joker in their terminology) who get good angles via splits / formation - and then wrap their OG’s around the edge to clear a path. Their Center play has improved, so that the C can often reach a play side shaded NG (giving them an ‘extra’ man playside.) B/S OT & sometimes TE and/or H-Back don’t need to seal backside because they are gonna hit it both wide & upfield quick, so the b/s DLman can run free without being too much of a threat…unless they are ‘freaks’ (see Alabama, Georgia, and Clemson rosters for examples of those). Instead those 1-3 blockers are taking sharp angles downfield and looking to pick up LB’S or DB’s pursuing to give the play a chance to break for big yards. They’ve now repped it enough that the RB’s know how/when to be patient & quick/burst-y while setting up / reading their lead blockers. It’s a version of 48/49 Sweep that we used to run about 40% of our plays & about 100% of them inside the red zone. It’s a play as old as the game itself. Still works if you have the right Players to run it & invest in it.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:07 am
by Davemeister
Yesterday we were not out-fanned or out-band, but we were definitely out-planned and out-manned.
We've been told time and again how much talent has been recruited for our program, yet I saw little evidence of it on the field yesterday. It looked to me like Mercer had better players. And they were certainly better prepared for the game.
Perhaps a lot of our talent lies in the players who were wearing the purple jerseys yesterday. And there were a bunch of them. To heck with next year, maybe some of those guys can help us right now. The ones we had suited up in gray aren't getting it done.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:43 am
by apaladin
FUBeAR wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:28 am
tim wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 am
Cronic is a great coach anyway, but give him an extra week to prepare for a team and he will be extra tough. What was that one play he kept going to on 3rd and long? Jet sweep maybe? He must have seen some tendency. We have an extra week to prepare for Woffy so we should expect the same preparation and a win.
FUBeAR believes you’re talking about their Buck Sweep play…Mercer has 2 Xfer OG’s - 1 from VT & 1 from L-R…who are both stout & very exp’d, VERY athletic, love to pull, run, and lead block. They are able to ‘set the edge’ with 2 athletic blockers - a TE & H-Back (Joker in their terminology) who get good angles via splits / formation - and then wrap their OG’s around the edge to clear a path. Their Center play has improved, so that the C can often reach a play side shaded NG (giving them an ‘extra’ man playside.) B/S OT & sometimes TE and/or H-Back don’t need to seal backside because they are gonna hit it both wide & upfield quick, so the b/s DLman can run free without being too much of a threat…unless they are ‘freaks’ (see Alabama, Georgia, and Clemson rosters for examples of those). Instead those 1-3 blockers are taking sharp angles downfield and looking to pick up LB’S or DB’s pursuing to give the play a chance to break for big yards. They’ve now repped it enough that the RB’s know how/when to be patient & quick/burst-y while setting up / reading their lead blockers. It’s a version of 48/49 Sweep that we used to run about 40% of our plays & about 100% of them inside the red zone. It’s a play as old as the game itself. Still works if you have the right Players to run it & invest in it.
I think the loss of Sochvaka has been underestimated. After he went out early in the second half A&T immediately started running the ball to his vacated spot with great success. It continued for the rest of the game. Before he went out they had no success. I think we tend to think with all our “talent” we just put another body out there and not miss a beat, In this case that hasn’t been true.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm
by gofurman
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:43 am
FUBeAR wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:28 am
tim wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 am
Cronic is a great coach anyway, but give him an extra week to prepare for a team and he will be extra tough. What was that one play he kept going to on 3rd and long? Jet sweep maybe? He must have seen some tendency. We have an extra week to prepare for Woffy so we should expect the same preparation and a win.
FUBeAR believes you’re talking about their Buck Sweep play…Mercer has 2 Xfer OG’s - 1 from VT & 1 from L-R…who are both stout & very exp’d, VERY athletic, love to pull, run, and lead block. They are able to ‘set the edge’ with 2 athletic blockers - a TE & H-Back (Joker in their terminology) who get good angles via splits / formation - and then wrap their OG’s around the edge to clear a path. Their Center play has improved, so that the C can often reach a play side shaded NG (giving them an ‘extra’ man playside.) B/S OT & sometimes TE and/or H-Back don’t need to seal backside because they are gonna hit it both wide & upfield quick, so the b/s DLman can run free without being too much of a threat…unless they are ‘freaks’ (see Alabama, Georgia, and Clemson rosters for examples of those). Instead those 1-3 blockers are taking sharp angles downfield and looking to pick up LB’S or DB’s pursuing to give the play a chance to break for big yards. They’ve now repped it enough that the RB’s know how/when to be patient & quick/burst-y while setting up / reading their lead blockers. It’s a version of 48/49 Sweep that we used to run about 40% of our plays & about 100% of them inside the red zone. It’s a play as old as the game itself. Still works if you have the right Players to run it & invest in it.
I think the loss of Sochvaka has been underestimated. After he went out early in the second half A&T immediately started running the ball to his vacated spot with great success. It continued for the rest of the game. Before he went out they had no success. I think we tend to think with all our “talent” we just put another body out there and not miss a beat, In this case that hasn’t been true.
AP. Good point. Not that our D is our overall problem - our D is better than out O - BUT Your point may have merit. Guy sitting near me played for our level and felt we were a little small on DL. our DL did seem to wear down. Though they were on the field a fair bit. All that said we only gave up 24 pt despite very little help from O. If Our O scores 17 our D is probably more rested and - feels we have a chance To win so may play harder - we may only give up 17
As jackal once said - ‘Next man up ‘ is good only so far. Especially in FCS where man 1/2 (1 and 2 on depth chart). Is now 2/3. That third guy may not have been supposed to play this year
**** AP. Check your PM
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:50 pm
by purplehorse
I always like our head coach-always. But liking them and them being good head coaches are two different things. I might understand our decline on the field if we weren’t told that our players were “bigger, faster, stronger” by CCH.
Good teams know how to make their “luck.”
One of our biggest problems is we no longer have that “winning mentality” unfortunately.
Running the ball up the middle when down by 21 in the 4th quarter is a “losing mentality.” You might as well wave the white flag and say “we give up.”
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
by apaladin
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 pm
by gofurman
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard
CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
wow - that's an indictment of his own recruiting. To say we want to play teams with guys our size. O U CH. Its our choice who we recruit. If you want guys like Mercer then recruit guys like Mercer !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:26 pm
by Affirm
gofurman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 pm
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard
CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
wow - that's an indictment of his own recruiting. To say we want to play teams with guys our size. O U CH. Its our choice who we recruit. If you want guys like Mercer then recruit guys like Mercer !!!!!!!!!!!!!
No. Not an indictment of anything!
You cannot MAKE big guys come to the school. You cannot require admissions to accept people just because they are big good football players. You have to work with what you have.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:42 pm
by youwouldno
Within scholarship FCS, talent really doesn't vary all that much. It's 95% coaching.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:58 pm
by Furmanoid
affirm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:26 pm
gofurman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 pm
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard
CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
wow - that's an indictment of his own recruiting. To say we want to play teams with guys our size. O U CH. Its our choice who we recruit. If you want guys like Mercer then recruit guys like Mercer !!!!!!!!!!!!!
No. Not an indictment of anything!
You cannot MAKE big guys come to the school. You cannot require admissions to accept people just because they are big good football players. You have to work with what you have.
I don’t see any reason to believe Furman’s admissions are stricter than Mercer’s. Mercer’s SAT numbers are very impressive. It is a similar school. I thought Hendrix was a believer in slightly smaller but more athletic guys. If he now wants bigger, slower guys he could have gone out and got some wherever Mercer got theirs. Bigger more athletic guys play FBS.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:06 pm
by gofurman
Furmanoid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:58 pm
affirm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:26 pm
gofurman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 pm
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard
CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
wow - that's an indictment of his own recruiting. To say we want to play teams with guys our size. O U CH. Its our choice who we recruit. If you want guys like Mercer then recruit guys like Mercer !!!!!!!!!!!!!
No. Not an indictment of anything!
You cannot MAKE big guys come to the school. You cannot require admissions to accept people just because they are big good football players. You have to work with what you have.
I don’t see any reason to believe Furman’s admissions are stricter than Mercer’s. Mercer’s SAT numbers are very impressive. It is a similar school. I thought Hendrix was a believer in slightly smaller but more athletic guys. If he now wants bigger, slower guys he could have gone out and got some wherever Mercer got theirs. Bigger more athletic guys play FBS.
BUT WE HAVE THE TOP 5/10 RECRUITING CLASS !1 Right? that's what we have been told (
literally) for several years now !! If our recruiting is so freakin' awesome then where is the issue?? That only leaves Coaching/playcalling and some execution - Luck doesn't account for spring and fall and Austin Peay and what I see with my own eyes, etc.
(By the way, cerdit to Mercer - well played game )
Granted, Luck is a piece. but that comes and goes - one game here and there you have exceptional bad luck (all fumbles go to the other team) and crazy good luck (every fumble goes our way) but over Two seasons? It evens out. That there ' Law of Averages ' . Luck doesn't account for APeay and losing so many to end the Spring and scoring 3 points vs Mercer and etc etc etc.
Re: Coaching V talent V luck etc
PostPosted:Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:06 pm
by Affirm
Furmanoid wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:58 pm
affirm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:26 pm
gofurman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 pm
apaladin wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:37 pm
gf- back at ya. On the size issue. I cringed when I heard
CCH say on WCCP that it would be good to get back to playing teams with bodies our size. Really? Like ok we will be fine when we go back to little league. Without looking it up I bet Mercer was bigger than FU on both sides of the ball as is every other SoCon team.
wow - that's an indictment of his own recruiting. To say we want to play teams with guys our size. O U CH. Its our choice who we recruit. If you want guys like Mercer then recruit guys like Mercer !!!!!!!!!!!!!
No. Not an indictment of anything!
You cannot MAKE big guys come to the school. You cannot require admissions to accept people just because they are big good football players. You have to work with what you have.
I don’t see any reason to believe Furman’s admissions are stricter than Mercer’s. Mercer’s SAT numbers are very impressive. It is a similar school. I thought Hendrix was a believer in slightly smaller but more athletic guys. If he now wants bigger, slower guys he could have gone out and got some wherever Mercer got theirs. Bigger more athletic guys play FBS.
I may be proven wrong, but I still think big Mercer (9,000 students) has an easier time with FB student-athlete admissions than little Furman (2,700 students).