The Future of Furman Football

[tim]

Isn't it amazing that Mr Youth advocate (former asst special teams coordinator Pop Warner football Aiken SC) would advocate for the taking away of football scholarships for about 60 fine young athletes and the probable destruction of one of the oldest football programs in the country ?

[FU Hoopla]

Furman spends about $8,500,000.00 annually on Football. Football directly brings in about $2,500,000.00. Our football spending is similar to that of the other private National Liberal Arts Colleges that have FCS Football (such as Richmond, Colgate, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell) and also similar to Mercer (which is not a National Liberal Arts College), in terms of our annual Football program spending. All those schools spend between about $8 million and about $9 million.
I am not convinced that the approximate $6,000,000.00 annual loss by Furman Football is completely made up by donors (alumni, etc.) who would stop giving if Furman were to move to Pioneer Football League. Yes, there would likely be some loss, but not $6,000,000.00.
Davidson apparently spends about $2,500,000.00 annually on Football. Davidson reportedly has a Football Program surplus of about $750,000.00 annually in the most recent year.
Furman would not be moving in the wrong direction merely on account of deciding to move to Pioneer Football League. Of course a lot of the outcomes from such a move could depend upon exactly what conferences(s) we would be able to play all of our other sports in.
The economics of college sports have changed, as we are all aware.
We do need to consider how our rival Wofford would respond if we made a move. Would they be happy to not have to share with us on the money games with FBS schools? Would that matter to Furman? Would letting that stop us be like “cutting off our nose to spite our face”?

It should also be noted that even with far less FB crazy locations like Indy, upstate NY & San Diego, the PL averages 1700 more fans per game. You have a higher travel budget but every team has seen it more than offset by cost reduction (scholarships).Plus more people actually go to games & buy stuff.. And I think its 50/50 we could get Wofford to go too.

Not agreeing with Furmanoid here.
And the unfriendly responses by Tim and apaladin did not help the discussion.
Just asking for some true discussion on the topic represented by the thread’s title, “THE FUTURE OF FURMAN FOOTBALL”.
Please realize I am not totally dug in on my opinion about Pioneer and money.
I have now seen that the total of annual donations received by Furman is about $50,000,000.00. Do not know how much of that is from alumni and football-specific donors; but if we somehow lost 10% of $50,000,000.00 due to going Pioneer, and without adequately greater financial net gain by being in A-10 (or other) for all non-football sports combined with lower football expenditure, then why make the change? Would being in Pioneer and A-10 (or other) cause us to become sufficiently more attractive to more potential students (and corporate donors plus new fans, particularly A-10) in the future?

If it would cause FB to lose even more than it does now, obviously we wouldn’t do it. But the teams in the league pretty much all report a financial BENEFIT. That’s a selling point. Travel goes up, scholarships about 80% of costs, go away. And on average they get 1700 more butts in seats. I’d love to see a good financial analysis. We have data from a league vs speculation about how much donors will back out. Not all of them will. Some might rather pay for equipment & facilities instead of scholarships. Why not ask?

Now for the insults.

Please clear this up for me, what league get's 1,700 more butts in seats than what other league?

Surely you're not saying the pioneer league...........

[Furmanoid]

Furman spends about $8,500,000.00 annually on Football. Football directly brings in about $2,500,000.00. Our football spending is similar to that of the other private National Liberal Arts Colleges that have FCS Football (such as Richmond, Colgate, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell) and also similar to Mercer (which is not a National Liberal Arts College), in terms of our annual Football program spending. All those schools spend between about $8 million and about $9 million.
I am not convinced that the approximate $6,000,000.00 annual loss by Furman Football is completely made up by donors (alumni, etc.) who would stop giving if Furman were to move to Pioneer Football League. Yes, there would likely be some loss, but not $6,000,000.00.
Davidson apparently spends about $2,500,000.00 annually on Football. Davidson reportedly has a Football Program surplus of about $750,000.00 annually in the most recent year.
Furman would not be moving in the wrong direction merely on account of deciding to move to Pioneer Football League. Of course a lot of the outcomes from such a move could depend upon exactly what conferences(s) we would be able to play all of our other sports in.
The economics of college sports have changed, as we are all aware.
We do need to consider how our rival Wofford would respond if we made a move. Would they be happy to not have to share with us on the money games with FBS schools? Would that matter to Furman? Would letting that stop us be like “cutting off our nose to spite our face”?

It should also be noted that even with far less FB crazy locations like Indy, upstate NY & San Diego, the PL averages 1700 more fans per game. You have a higher travel budget but every team has seen it more than offset by cost reduction (scholarships).Plus more people actually go to games & buy stuff.. And I think its 50/50 we could get Wofford to go too.

Not agreeing with Furmanoid here.
And the unfriendly responses by Tim and apaladin did not help the discussion.
Just asking for some true discussion on the topic represented by the thread’s title, “THE FUTURE OF FURMAN FOOTBALL”.
Please realize I am not totally dug in on my opinion about Pioneer and money.
I have now seen that the total of annual donations received by Furman is about $50,000,000.00. Do not know how much of that is from alumni and football-specific donors; but if we somehow lost 10% of $50,000,000.00 due to going Pioneer, and without adequately greater financial net gain by being in A-10 (or other) for all non-football sports combined with lower football expenditure, then why make the change? Would being in Pioneer and A-10 (or other) cause us to become sufficiently more attractive to more potential students (and corporate donors plus new fans, particularly A-10) in the future?

If it would cause FB to lose even more than it does now, obviously we wouldn’t do it. But the teams in the league pretty much all report a financial BENEFIT. That’s a selling point. Travel goes up, scholarships about 80% of costs, go away. And on average they get 1700 more butts in seats. I’d love to see a good financial analysis. We have data from a league vs speculation about how much donors will back out. Not all of them will. Some might rather pay for equipment & facilities instead of scholarships. Why not ask?

Now for the insults.

Please clear this up for me, what league get's 1,700 more butts in seats than what other league?

Surely you're not saying the pioneer league...........

According to the AI I used, the Pioneer gets way more spectators for FB. Maybe its cheaper tickets, bigger cities or just students rooting for real classmates. Just an interesting detail often overlooked.

A10 or Patriot are better options but aren't they full?

[MNORM]

Furman spends about $8,500,000.00 annually on Football. Football directly brings in about $2,500,000.00. Our football spending is similar to that of the other private National Liberal Arts Colleges that have FCS Football (such as Richmond, Colgate, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell) and also similar to Mercer (which is not a National Liberal Arts College), in terms of our annual Football program spending. All those schools spend between about $8 million and about $9 million.
I am not convinced that the approximate $6,000,000.00 annual loss by Furman Football is completely made up by donors (alumni, etc.) who would stop giving if Furman were to move to Pioneer Football League. Yes, there would likely be some loss, but not $6,000,000.00.
Davidson apparently spends about $2,500,000.00 annually on Football. Davidson reportedly has a Football Program surplus of about $750,000.00 annually in the most recent year.
Furman would not be moving in the wrong direction merely on account of deciding to move to Pioneer Football League. Of course a lot of the outcomes from such a move could depend upon exactly what conferences(s) we would be able to play all of our other sports in.
The economics of college sports have changed, as we are all aware.
We do need to consider how our rival Wofford would respond if we made a move. Would they be happy to not have to share with us on the money games with FBS schools? Would that matter to Furman? Would letting that stop us be like “cutting off our nose to spite our face”?

It should also be noted that even with far less FB crazy locations like Indy, upstate NY & San Diego, the PL averages 1700 more fans per game. You have a higher travel budget but every team has seen it more than offset by cost reduction (scholarships).Plus more people actually go to games & buy stuff.. And I think its 50/50 we could get Wofford to go too.

Not agreeing with Furmanoid here.
And the unfriendly responses by Tim and apaladin did not help the discussion.
Just asking for some true discussion on the topic represented by the thread’s title, “THE FUTURE OF FURMAN FOOTBALL”.
Please realize I am not totally dug in on my opinion about Pioneer and money.
I have now seen that the total of annual donations received by Furman is about $50,000,000.00. Do not know how much of that is from alumni and football-specific donors; but if we somehow lost 10% of $50,000,000.00 due to going Pioneer, and without adequately greater financial net gain by being in A-10 (or other) for all non-football sports combined with lower football expenditure, then why make the change? Would being in Pioneer and A-10 (or other) cause us to become sufficiently more attractive to more potential students (and corporate donors plus new fans, particularly A-10) in the future?

If it would cause FB to lose even more than it does now, obviously we wouldn’t do it. But the teams in the league pretty much all report a financial BENEFIT. That’s a selling point. Travel goes up, scholarships about 80% of costs, go away. And on average they get 1700 more butts in seats. I’d love to see a good financial analysis. We have data from a league vs speculation about how much donors will back out. Not all of them will. Some might rather pay for equipment & facilities instead of scholarships. Why not ask?

Now for the insults.

Please clear this up for me, what league get's 1,700 more butts in seats than what other league?

Surely you're not saying the pioneer league...........

According to the AI I used, the Pioneer gets way more spectators for FB. Maybe its cheaper tickets, bigger cities or just students rooting for real classmates. Just an interesting detail often overlooked.

A10 or Patriot are better options but aren't they full?

This is incorrect...and it isn't even close. The SoCon averages around 3400 more butts in seats for games than the Pioneer. This is roughly double the average attendance for 2025.

[Furmanoid]

Furman spends about $8,500,000.00 annually on Football. Football directly brings in about $2,500,000.00. Our football spending is similar to that of the other private National Liberal Arts Colleges that have FCS Football (such as Richmond, Colgate, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Bucknell) and also similar to Mercer (which is not a National Liberal Arts College), in terms of our annual Football program spending. All those schools spend between about $8 million and about $9 million.
I am not convinced that the approximate $6,000,000.00 annual loss by Furman Football is completely made up by donors (alumni, etc.) who would stop giving if Furman were to move to Pioneer Football League. Yes, there would likely be some loss, but not $6,000,000.00.
Davidson apparently spends about $2,500,000.00 annually on Football. Davidson reportedly has a Football Program surplus of about $750,000.00 annually in the most recent year.
Furman would not be moving in the wrong direction merely on account of deciding to move to Pioneer Football League. Of course a lot of the outcomes from such a move could depend upon exactly what conferences(s) we would be able to play all of our other sports in.
The economics of college sports have changed, as we are all aware.
We do need to consider how our rival Wofford would respond if we made a move. Would they be happy to not have to share with us on the money games with FBS schools? Would that matter to Furman? Would letting that stop us be like “cutting off our nose to spite our face”?

It should also be noted that even with far less FB crazy locations like Indy, upstate NY & San Diego, the PL averages 1700 more fans per game. You have a higher travel budget but every team has seen it more than offset by cost reduction (scholarships).Plus more people actually go to games & buy stuff.. And I think its 50/50 we could get Wofford to go too.

Not agreeing with Furmanoid here.
And the unfriendly responses by Tim and apaladin did not help the discussion.
Just asking for some true discussion on the topic represented by the thread’s title, “THE FUTURE OF FURMAN FOOTBALL”.
Please realize I am not totally dug in on my opinion about Pioneer and money.
I have now seen that the total of annual donations received by Furman is about $50,000,000.00. Do not know how much of that is from alumni and football-specific donors; but if we somehow lost 10% of $50,000,000.00 due to going Pioneer, and without adequately greater financial net gain by being in A-10 (or other) for all non-football sports combined with lower football expenditure, then why make the change? Would being in Pioneer and A-10 (or other) cause us to become sufficiently more attractive to more potential students (and corporate donors plus new fans, particularly A-10) in the future?

If it would cause FB to lose even more than it does now, obviously we wouldn’t do it. But the teams in the league pretty much all report a financial BENEFIT. That’s a selling point. Travel goes up, scholarships about 80% of costs, go away. And on average they get 1700 more butts in seats. I’d love to see a good financial analysis. We have data from a league vs speculation about how much donors will back out. Not all of them will. Some might rather pay for equipment & facilities instead of scholarships. Why not ask?

Now for the insults.

Please clear this up for me, what league get's 1,700 more butts in seats than what other league?

Surely you're not saying the pioneer league...........

According to the AI I used, the Pioneer gets way more spectators for FB. Maybe its cheaper tickets, bigger cities or just students rooting for real classmates. Just an interesting detail often overlooked.

A10 or Patriot are better options but aren't they full?

This is incorrect...and it isn't even close. The SoCon averages around 3400 more butts in seats for games than the Pioneer. This is roughly double the average attendance for 2025.

I stand corrected. I asked 2 AI's Yesterday. Seemed hard to believe. Today I get a different answer to the same question.

[FU Hoopla]

I’ll just be straight up honest, anybody who knows fcs football does not need to ask AI about Pioneer attendance, they already know nobody watches those games, that league gets 2,000 spectators on a good day….

The Patriot league will be good Football for us…..
It’s 2026, no league is ‘Full’

[paladinfan12]

I am still skeptical this is the right move, but I like A-10 for everything and Patriot for Football. Ideally football stays in the SoCon for travel reasons, but the SoCon has said they will not do football only.

6 schools in the A-10 do football (albeit 2 in Pioneer). I wonder if there is an appetite to start football in the A-10? That would solve a lot of problems with this move.

[Xcxc069]

**Why has Furman basketball been able to turn things around while football seems to be going in the opposite direction?**

Genuine question for everyone. I’ve been attending Furman games for about 40 years. For most of my life, basketball struggled to be consistently competitive, while football was a program we could usually take pride in.

Fast forward to today, and Bob Richey has helped turn basketball into a consistent SoCon contender, winning two conference tournament championships in the last four years. Meanwhile, football seems to be heading in the opposite direction.

What has Richey and the basketball program done differently that football hasn’t been able to accomplish?

Is it coaching, recruiting, player development, financial support from the university, or something else entirely?

I understand the transfer portal and NIL have changed college athletics, but both programs operate under the same university.

**I’m genuinely curious what everyone thinks is the biggest difference between the direction of these two programs.**

[Paul C]

First off, I think Clay is a great coach and I have a ton of respect for what he’s accomplished over his career.

But the qualities it takes to manage and lead a program at Furman nowadays don't seem to be in his wheelhouse. It is Bob’s.

Bob does a lot of fund raising. Always preaching lofty goals and a positive vision. Not sure if I’ve ever heard Clay sell positive vision.

Bob sees the potential of Furman and Greenville. Around the football program all I hear about are the obstacles and challenges.

Again, nothing against Clay. He’s a really good football coach. I’m just not sure if the things it takes to run a successful program at a place like Furman in this era are his strengths.

FWIW I don’t know crap about what goes on behind the scenes and I could be way off. But it’s what I see.

[tim]

Richey said " It is what it is" and embraced the change. He got Wilkins some money and is recruiting players who probably want to do the same. Good young players want to come here. Big schools are a little afraid of those Freshmen.

[FUPlayer74]

If you've got $300 k in NIL money for each program, obviously it'll go a lot further in basketball. Quite frankly one player can make a difference, not so in football. The difference and why Clay complains is that he hasn't received any increase in operating funds in forever. This is on the FU administation. He has to bus 2 days to Ole Miss to pick up a check and BB is traveling around the country by charter jet. Bob Richey is the highest paid employee at FU. He gets whatever he wants because FU is scared to death he's leaving. Hey I'm a season ticket holder in BB and have been for years, but somebody asked what's the difference. Well it's money.

[Xcxc069]

First off, I think Clay is a great coach and I have a ton of respect for what he’s accomplished over his career.

But the qualities it takes to manage and lead a program at Furman nowadays don't seem to be in his wheelhouse. It is Bob’s.

Bob does a lot of fund raising. Always preaching lofty goals and a positive vision. Not sure if I’ve ever heard Clay sell positive vision.

Bob sees the potential of Furman and Greenville. Around the football program all I hear about are the obstacles and challenges.

Again, nothing against Clay. He’s a really good football coach. I’m just not sure if the things it takes to run a successful program at a place like Furman in this era are his strengths.

FWIW I don’t know crap about what goes on behind the scenes and I could be way off. But it’s what I see.

I agree with this! Haha every time I listen to Bob Richey speak, I feel like I need to lace up my shoes, run through a brick wall, and go accomplish something with my life! The man can make you believe anything is possible!

But seriously, I think you make a great point. Richey doesn’t just seem to believe in his players, he believes in what Furman can become. And more importantly, he has a way of making everyone else believe in it too.

I have a lot of respect for Clay as well, but I do think there’s something to be said about the ability to sell a vision, generate excitement, and get people invested in a program. Especially in today’s college athletics. Maybe that’s one of the biggest differences between the direction of these two programs right now.

[FU Hoopla]

If you've got $300 k in NIL money for each program, obviously it'll go a lot further in basketball. Quite frankly one player can make a difference, not so in football. The difference and why Clay complains is that he hasn't received any increase in operating funds in forever. This is on the FU administation. He has to bus 2 days to Ole Miss to pick up a check and BB is traveling around the country by charter jet. Bob Richey is the highest paid employee at FU. He gets whatever he wants because FU is scared to death he's leaving. Hey I'm a season ticket holder in BB and have been for years, but somebody asked what's the difference. Well it's money.

We have a lot more than 300k available for use in NIL for hoops........
Furman has become a Basketball school, its how the entire college sports universe views Furman now-a-days......
Bob Richey has earned his paycheck the hard way, building us from a complete mess into a mid-major power......
Of course the program is going to get strong support, it damn well deserves it, and we have big time dreams moving forward!

[purplehorse123]

I have read very few of the comments here. Being a Furman graduate and having had season tickets to FU football & basketball for 40 years I know many have quit coming to the Furman football games over the years. I would love to know the official football attendance over the last 40 years.

If we can’t compete for a football conference championship every 3 years or so & get in the playoffs then I don’t see the point. I fear the good ole days are over.

We won’t be able to stand too many years like the current one. In the last 10 years we have had 2 good seasons (10-3 in both 2022 & 2023). Since then we are 11-20-1.

But objective data shows we have had lots of dry/tough times.

In 2006 we were 8-4 and in 2017 we were 8-5. In the intervening 10 years we were sub-.500 FIVE of those years.

Our only really good years in the last 36 years dating back to 1991 were:

1996-9-4

1999-9-3

2000-9-3

2001-12-3

2002-8-4

2004-10-3

2005-11-3

2006-8-4

2022-10-3

2023-10-3

That is about 28 % of the last 36 years where we have had really good records. So again there have been lots of dry or tough times so maybe things aren’t quite as bad as they seem but part of the cycles of football.

This has to be one of the worst football offenses ever. We have really struggled at the QB position over the years. Not too many Ingle Martins. I like Clay a lot BUT serious changes need to be made.

[FUPlayer74]

Hypothetical point. Just answering the question. FU plays football and basketball. Some fans pull for both!