Assessing the SoCon, post realignment

[soconjohn]

Good post, Michael...I am also an App State grad...Grew up in Greenville SC, and I remember the days when SoCon football drew large crowds...Heck, I started following the league when Marshall was still a member...With App, Marshall, and Georgia Southern having now left, the road crowds are not nearly what they used to be because these teams traveled as well as any fanbases in SoCon football, as well as the FCS at the time,,,Not sure what the answer is completely to your question, but there some obvious talent loss when you lose teams like that...One thing on the football side, is that those teams challenged Furman and Wofford and Chattanooga etc to recruit better to keep up...I compare it to ETSU in basketball...If Furman or Wofford don't keep up with the UNCG's and ETSU's of the league, they would be in danger of falling through the cracks...Though basketball lost CofC and Davidson, I think coaching hires were key here...The league improved because of the likes of bringing a Steve Forbes into the league...Then Furman hires Bob Richey...Wofford already had Mike Young...A lot of the basketball has to do with different coaching styles. Forbes knows JUCO hoops and is a guru at finding those type guys to fit his puzzle...Furman's Richey and staff are masters at development...The SoCon has hit a golden era in basketball because of the coaches it has within it currently.

[Affirm]

"The SoCon has hit a golden era in basketball because of the coaches it has within it currently."
Some other golden eras for SoCon basketball, during the years while Furman has been a member, have probably included
1936-1953 during which years the conference membership included not only Furman, VMI, and Citadel, but also most of the following teams:
Wake Forest, George Washington, Richmond, William & Mary, Citadel, Davidson, Duke, South Carolina, Clemson, North Carolina, NCSU, Maryland, Washington & Lee, Virginia Tech, and West Virginia.
I can remember when GW, Richmond, W&M, and West Virginia were members, plus obviously when ASU, Georgia Southern, Marshall, Davidson, ECU, Elon, and CofC were members - not all at the same time of course.
There have been some golden eras.
I agree that it is fair to call 2019-2020 a golden era, and hopefully 2020-2021 will be a golden era also.

[gofurman]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

Astro, you make a great list.. Thanks.

I am piggybacking on Jackal here but I think there are Two issues still that we always have to overcome. One you mention is academics. I wish there was more equality here but it is what it is.

The other is what Jackal said and wasn't listed here. The enormous proliferation of G5 and new programs. Jackal makes a great listing. Instead of Furman and program X both getting 10 great players (from 20 great total players available).. now w Woff being D1 and Mercer and Coastal and etc etc etc we all get 1 or 2 of those 20 players. DILUTION. Probably why the coaches are going with a wide net in recruiting!

------------------------
I also have to agree with the lack of identity in the later 2008-2017 or something. Our OL play (not the OL PLAYERS !) was just weird and convoluted for several years. We seemed to have some scheme where we struggled to keep Presbyterian out of our backfield. Literally 3DL would break through and sack our QB with us having 5 OL AND a RB to block! We were losing when we had 6 and the opponent brought 3 DL ... that was painful and, honestly, without explanation:

As Furmanoid said here:
quote=Furmanoid post_id=27349 time=1587561314 user_id=431]
I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

As Jackal said, that level of D and special teams with almost NO offense ( counting on +12 turnovers) is just unsustainable. This was 2013 I think and probably kept us hoping longer than we should have.

All that said, we need to overcome academics and find a way to recruit. Hope to see it. CH is doing great things. Need to break through 8-5 soon and hit a second / third round playoff game in next few years !!

[Affirm]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

Astro, you make a great list.. Thanks.

I am piggybacking on Jackal here but I think there are Two issues still that we always have to overcome. One you mention is academics. I wish there was more equality here but it is what it is.

The other is what Jackal said and wasn't listed here. The enormous proliferation of G5 and new programs. Jackal makes a great listing. Instead of Furman and program X both getting 10 great players (from 20 great total players available).. now w Woff being D1 and Mercer and Coastal and etc etc etc we all get 1 or 2 of those 20 players. DILUTION. Probably why the coaches are going with a wide net in recruiting!

------------------------
I also have to agree with the lack of identity in the later 2008-2017 or something. Our OL play (not the OL PLAYERS !) was just weird and convoluted for several years. We seemed to have some scheme where we struggled to keep Presbyterian out of our backfield. Literally 3DL would break through and sack our QB with us having 5 OL AND a RB to block! We were losing when we had 6 and the opponent brought 3 DL ... that was painful and, honestly, without explanation:

As Furmanoid said here:
quote=Furmanoid post_id=27349 time=1587561314 user_id=431]
I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

As Jackal said, that level of D and special teams with almost NO offense ( counting on +12 turnovers) is just unsustainable. This was 2013 I think and probably kept us hoping longer than we should have.

All that said, we need to overcome academics and find a way to recruit. Hope to see it. CH is doing great things. Need to break through 8-5 soon and hit a second / third round playoff game in next few years !!

“Overcome academics at Furman” is an oxymoron. I hope what is meant is “we need to be able to have good athletics along with academics.” There are schools similar to Furman that are more highly rated academically than Furman (Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson, Richmond) that have athletics at a level approximately equal to or in some areas better than Furman. We don’t need to literally “overcome” academics. Actually, we need to improve academics while maintaining or improving quality in athletics.

[FurmAlum]

I've been called an oxymoron.

[gofurman]

I've been called an oxymoron.

I am an oxymoron. Wish that was the worst I had been called.

[The Jackal]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

Astro, you make a great list.. Thanks.

I am piggybacking on Jackal here but I think there are Two issues still that we always have to overcome. One you mention is academics. I wish there was more equality here but it is what it is.

The other is what Jackal said and wasn't listed here. The enormous proliferation of G5 and new programs. Jackal makes a great listing. Instead of Furman and program X both getting 10 great players (from 20 great total players available).. now w Woff being D1 and Mercer and Coastal and etc etc etc we all get 1 or 2 of those 20 players. DILUTION. Probably why the coaches are going with a wide net in recruiting!

------------------------
I also have to agree with the lack of identity in the later 2008-2017 or something. Our OL play (not the OL PLAYERS !) was just weird and convoluted for several years. We seemed to have some scheme where we struggled to keep Presbyterian out of our backfield. Literally 3DL would break through and sack our QB with us having 5 OL AND a RB to block! We were losing when we had 6 and the opponent brought 3 DL ... that was painful and, honestly, without explanation:

As Furmanoid said here:
quote=Furmanoid post_id=27349 time=1587561314 user_id=431]
I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

As Jackal said, that level of D and special teams with almost NO offense ( counting on +12 turnovers) is just unsustainable. This was 2013 I think and probably kept us hoping longer than we should have.

All that said, we need to overcome academics and find a way to recruit. Hope to see it. CH is doing great things. Need to break through 8-5 soon and hit a second / third round playoff game in next few years !!

“Overcome academics at Furman” is an oxymoron. I hope what is meant is “we need to be able to have good athletics along with academics.” There are schools similar to Furman that are more highly rated academically than Furman (Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson) that have athletics at a level approximately equal to or in some areas better than Furman. We don’t need to literally “overcome” academics. Actually, we need to improve academics while maintaining or improving quality in athletics.

I think the academics requirement was an easy crutch and excuse for a long time.

Yes, we have higher entrance requirements than many programs. No, we cannot just accept every JuCo transfer that can bubble in his name.

That just means we have to be better.

[The Jackal]

I have gone back over the years and tried to figure out what we were attempting to do offensively under Bruce Fowler. I still have no idea what the thought process was.

[Affirm]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

Astro, you make a great list.. Thanks.

I am piggybacking on Jackal here but I think there are Two issues still that we always have to overcome. One you mention is academics. I wish there was more equality here but it is what it is.

The other is what Jackal said and wasn't listed here. The enormous proliferation of G5 and new programs. Jackal makes a great listing. Instead of Furman and program X both getting 10 great players (from 20 great total players available).. now w Woff being D1 and Mercer and Coastal and etc etc etc we all get 1 or 2 of those 20 players. DILUTION. Probably why the coaches are going with a wide net in recruiting!

------------------------
I also have to agree with the lack of identity in the later 2008-2017 or something. Our OL play (not the OL PLAYERS !) was just weird and convoluted for several years. We seemed to have some scheme where we struggled to keep Presbyterian out of our backfield. Literally 3DL would break through and sack our QB with us having 5 OL AND a RB to block! We were losing when we had 6 and the opponent brought 3 DL ... that was painful and, honestly, without explanation:

As Furmanoid said here:
quote=Furmanoid post_id=27349 time=1587561314 user_id=431]
I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

As Jackal said, that level of D and special teams with almost NO offense ( counting on +12 turnovers) is just unsustainable. This was 2013 I think and probably kept us hoping longer than we should have.

All that said, we need to overcome academics and find a way to recruit. Hope to see it. CH is doing great things. Need to break through 8-5 soon and hit a second / third round playoff game in next few years !!

“Overcome academics at Furman” is an oxymoron. I hope what is meant is “we need to be able to have good athletics along with academics.” There are schools similar to Furman that are more highly rated academically than Furman (Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson) that have athletics at a level approximately equal to or in some areas better than Furman. We don’t need to literally “overcome” academics. Actually, we need to improve academics while maintaining or improving quality in athletics.

I think the academics requirement was an easy crutch and excuse for a long time.

Yes, we have higher entrance requirements than many programs. No, we cannot just accept every JuCo transfer that can bubble in his name.

That just means we have to be better.

Edited my original post to add Richmond to the list of higher ranked liberal arts colleges.
No, we do not need to be talking about “overcoming academics”.

[The Jackal]

Why did Furman football drop off after 2005… that's a dead horse we've whipped a lot. I'll try to be quick about it: very little administration support, tougher academic requirements, facilities were tired. Then we got a boost with a stadium upgrade, admin engagement, but our coaching was inconsistent and we played without an identity. And another big factor our SoCon brothers were out-recruiting us. One more big factor - limited player depth.

Under Hendrix > IMO things have changed quickly. Furman football is building an identity, impressive depth, we've got great coaches, and the players are bought in. Recruiting has improved year after year, and the payoff of CCH's fourth class of recruits is considered one of the top classes in FCS.

Astro, you make a great list.. Thanks.

I am piggybacking on Jackal here but I think there are Two issues still that we always have to overcome. One you mention is academics. I wish there was more equality here but it is what it is.

The other is what Jackal said and wasn't listed here. The enormous proliferation of G5 and new programs. Jackal makes a great listing. Instead of Furman and program X both getting 10 great players (from 20 great total players available).. now w Woff being D1 and Mercer and Coastal and etc etc etc we all get 1 or 2 of those 20 players. DILUTION. Probably why the coaches are going with a wide net in recruiting!

------------------------
I also have to agree with the lack of identity in the later 2008-2017 or something. Our OL play (not the OL PLAYERS !) was just weird and convoluted for several years. We seemed to have some scheme where we struggled to keep Presbyterian out of our backfield. Literally 3DL would break through and sack our QB with us having 5 OL AND a RB to block! We were losing when we had 6 and the opponent brought 3 DL ... that was painful and, honestly, without explanation:

As Furmanoid said here:
quote=Furmanoid post_id=27349 time=1587561314 user_id=431]
I’m hoping it was just a coaching thing that is now fixed. All through that span we just looked physically soft to me on both the ol and dL. On D the plan seemed to be to lure the opponent well inside our red zone and then draw a penalty or turnover. On O we seemed to think controlling the los was old fashioned or something and we were too smart for that. But this new guy is all about getting physical and athletic on the line. We aren’t there yet. But I think we’ll get there.

As Jackal said, that level of D and special teams with almost NO offense ( counting on +12 turnovers) is just unsustainable. This was 2013 I think and probably kept us hoping longer than we should have.

All that said, we need to overcome academics and find a way to recruit. Hope to see it. CH is doing great things. Need to break through 8-5 soon and hit a second / third round playoff game in next few years !!

“Overcome academics at Furman” is an oxymoron. I hope what is meant is “we need to be able to have good athletics along with academics.” There are schools similar to Furman that are more highly rated academically than Furman (Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Davidson) that have athletics at a level approximately equal to or in some areas better than Furman. We don’t need to literally “overcome” academics. Actually, we need to improve academics while maintaining or improving quality in athletics.

I think the academics requirement was an easy crutch and excuse for a long time.

Yes, we have higher entrance requirements than many programs. No, we cannot just accept every JuCo transfer that can bubble in his name.

That just means we have to be better.

Edited my original post to add Richmond to the list of higher ranked liberal arts colleges.
No, we do not need to be talking about “overcoming academics”.

Granted, we're better than Richmond in football right now.

I'm wondering Russ Huesman wishes he'd stayed at UTC. I imagine the Richmond folks won't be as patient with a rebuild as the UTC crowd was.

[cavedweller2]

Screw the academics. Win games. Win championships. That's what matters.

By any means necessary.

[Flagman]

Where did any talk of realignment originate? I didn’t know it was on the table.

We don’t need any more non-football schools in the SoCon.

[Roundball]

Where did any talk of realignment originate? I didn’t know it was on the table.

We don’t need any more non-football schools in the SoCon.

I respectfully disagree. The SoCon is a basketball conference. Football will not bring in the revenue to keep the conference in business.

[Furmanoid]

The academic thing puzzles me a little. Furman is test optional- no ACT or SAT required. A few years ago I did interviews for the admissions office and I got a girl in who had cratered on her SAT and chose not to submit it. But when they were seniors Dejuan Bell told my daughter he was stressing over his SAT because Furman was requiring a high score. He did fine because he was always a very good student. But it almost sounds like we require more from fb players than we do from regular rich kids. That doesn’t make sense to me.

[The Jackal]

Where did any talk of realignment originate? I didn’t know it was on the table.

We don’t need any more non-football schools in the SoCon.

I respectfully disagree. The SoCon is a basketball conference. Football will not bring in the revenue to keep the conference in business.

If I ran the world, I'd drop VMI and add Kennesaw. Heck, any one of those Big South teams would take a SoCon invite. If you add a program like Kennesaw, exact a blood price if they ever decide to move to the FBS.

With their new basketball chops, I'd also have no issue with brining back in some non-football schools with decent basketball programs (Belmont, Lipscomb, CofC, etc.). Reduce the need for non-conference games.