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“D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:54 am
by Roundball
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:25 am
by FUBeAR
“D. R. Hildebrand lives in New York City and is a 2003 graduate of the College of William & Mary, where he was a member of the swim team.”
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:52 am
by Furmanoid
I agree with much of what the author says. There is a widespread myth that football funds other sports. It is not true at very many places- certainly not at FU. And it is understandable that those associated with minor sports that lose a little money would be bummed that they are getting cut when sports that lose lots of money aren’t. And I do sometimes wonder if the whole FCS thing isn’t a little silly. You spend tons of money to pretend you’re a DI program so you can get some of it back with money games against the real DI. I think it’s heading for a cliff. But so is football in general so we might as well just enjoy it for a few more years. The game will probably be banned before we run out of money.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:13 pm
by FUBeAR
Furmanoid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:52 am
I agree with much of what the author says. There is a widespread myth that football funds other sports. It is not true at very many places- certainly not at FU. And it is understandable that those associated with minor sports that lose a little money would be bummed that they are getting cut when sports that lose lots of money aren’t. And I do sometimes wonder if the whole FCS thing isn’t a little silly. You spend tons of money to pretend you’re a DI program so you can get some of it back with money games against the real DI. I think it’s heading for a cliff. But so is football in general so we might as well just enjoy it for a few more years. The game will probably be banned before we run out of money.
Despite my bid-ness degree from FU, I didn’t pay much attention in Mr. Seller’s Accounting classes...but I believe there is a BUKU of ‘fuzzy accounting’ in the numbers this author is citing...and around College Athletics, in general. One example is counting the cost of scholarships at “full retail value.” With 63 of them, that’s gonna crush Football’s P&L...but if those 63 men weren’t there on scholarship, would FU be able to find 63 students to replace them at full retail value? Pretty sure that’s a “No,” as almost no students pay sticker price at any school...and it’s not like FU is actually ‘spending’ that $4.4M like they would for Fountain Maintenance or Solar Panel Repair costs to an outside vendor.
Anyway...it also ignores the value of having Football & Basketball in terms of attracting students - the whole “Front Porch Theory” - let’s quantify that & add some more fuzzy numbers to Football & Hoops on the + side of the ledger. Of course, we can do the same for Swimming, but I’m not sure how many digits would be to the left of those decimals.
About pretending to be Divison 1...FCS schools are nowhere near the pretenders that G5 schools are. We don’t go to silly bowl games, and (in most cases) don’t charge students exorbitant Athletics Fees to fund our folly. I don’t disagree necessarily...but I take a different perspective. I think FBS P5 schools are pretending to be college Teams. They are the ones that need to stop pretending and then re-sort out the G5 & FCS Teams that are the real D1 COLLEGE Teams.
You are right about Football soon being banned. With a death rate for HS & college players at least 100x greater than the ‘rona, how has it not been already?
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:40 pm
by cavedweller2
Benton Sellers was an excellent accounting instructor. I think I managed a C+ in his class.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:14 am
by FUBeAR
cavedweller2 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:40 pm
Benton Sellers was an excellent accounting instructor. I think I managed a C+ in his class.
B-Minuses for me, if I recall. I think I had him for ACCTG11 & ACCTG12. Yeah, he was a very nice gentleman - I just wasn’t too much into that whole debits & credits scene at that point in my life.
Think I had someone else for the other Accounting course I had to take - Cost Accounting (ACCTG21, maybe?). Can’t remember who...don’t think it was Asst Baseball Coach, Fred Current...but I do remember making fun of him for the way he shifted his weight and tugged up his pants by his belt whenever he made an important point - like he was giving signs to a hitter...so I must’ve had him for something & I’m pretty sure he only taught Accounting.
Anyway - good times...I’d love to see a FULLY fleshed out cost/benefit analysis of the financials of FU Football, properly attributing the ‘cost’ of scholarships to the cost side & fully loading the benefit side to include likely lost donations to non-football aspects of FU due in some part to the ‘connection’ donors feel to FU because of FU Football...stuff like that. I’m biased, of course, but I think the final tally would be in the black.
I know the President of a somewhat similar (I said “somewhat” Jackal...no need to weigh in) school in Macon, GA believes it is a significant “money-maker” for his school.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:21 am
by Flagman
Were it not for athletics, Furman would not be getting anything from my "sizeable" portfolio.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:20 pm
by Furmanoid
FUBeAR wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:13 pm
Furmanoid wrote: ↑Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:52 am
I agree with much of what the author says. There is a widespread myth that football funds other sports. It is not true at very many places- certainly not at FU. And it is understandable that those associated with minor sports that lose a little money would be bummed that they are getting cut when sports that lose lots of money aren’t. And I do sometimes wonder if the whole FCS thing isn’t a little silly. You spend tons of money to pretend you’re a DI program so you can get some of it back with money games against the real DI. I think it’s heading for a cliff. But so is football in general so we might as well just enjoy it for a few more years. The game will probably be banned before we run out of money.
Despite my bid-ness degree from FU, I didn’t pay much attention in Mr. Seller’s Accounting classes...but I believe there is a BUKU of ‘fuzzy accounting’ in the numbers this author is citing...and around College Athletics, in general. One example is counting the cost of scholarships at “full retail value.” With 63 of them, that’s gonna crush Football’s P&L...but if those 63 men weren’t there on scholarship, would FU be able to find 63 students to replace them at full retail value? Pretty sure that’s a “No,” as almost no students pay sticker price at any school...and it’s not like FU is actually ‘spending’ that $4.4M like they would for Fountain Maintenance or Solar Panel Repair costs to an outside vendor.
Anyway...it also ignores the value of having Football & Basketball in terms of attracting students - the whole “Front Porch Theory” - let’s quantify that & add some more fuzzy numbers to Football & Hoops on the + side of the ledger. Of course, we can do the same for Swimming, but I’m not sure how many digits would be to the left of those decimals.
About pretending to be Divison 1...FCS schools are nowhere near the pretenders that G5 schools are. We don’t go to silly bowl games, and (in most cases) don’t charge students exorbitant Athletics Fees to fund our folly. I don’t disagree necessarily...but I take a different perspective. I think FBS P5 schools are pretending to be college Teams. They are the ones that need to stop pretending and then re-sort out the G5 & FCS Teams that are the real D1 COLLEGE Teams.
You are right about Football soon being banned. With a death rate for HS & college players at least 100x greater than the ‘rona, how has it not been already?
I only took Econ 11 with Peanut Johnson, but let’s work through this. Athletic revenues are about $4M. Is it fair to say only about 3/4 is football? Ok let’s say the scholarships are only worth 50% of cost of attendance so we’ll call it $30k x 63 = $1.89M. I think we have 11 coaches. Let’s say they aren’t in it for the money and are working for $50k including benefits- far less than they would make at a HS. There are 4 or 5 other staff. Well give them $20k each. So that is $2.5M. I guess if all promotions, equipment, maintenance, travel and insurance stays under $500k the program could be in the black.
I do informal polling of HS kids all the time. Hate to tell you but nowadays kids who want to watch football go to UGA, Clemson, USC etc and they are a minority. Furman bound kids can perhaps spell football in 2 or three languages, but they aren’t clear on how to keep score or how many innings there are in a game, and they may not be aware FU even has a team. Mercer is probably more normal. They will need to correct that in order to become elite like FU. I’m sure having a team helps some in recruiting students, but I’m not sure it helps as much as people think.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:30 pm
by FurmAlum
Dr. Sellars was my faculty advisor although I majored in History and not business. My C in Principles of Accounting cured me of any more accounting classes. My entire working career, however, has been in the private sector business world.
I don't care whether football is profitable at Furman or not. I think its's important enough that as long as it's not losing tons of money, and I don't think it does, then I'm O.K. with it. Football and athletics in general are much more important to the alumni than to the students. I can't prove it but having strong athletics, especially football and basketball, do help recruit students in that it gets the Furman name out there, but more important it gives the alumni something to be proud about. You can't tell me that that National Championship in 1988 and all our football tradition that it spawned has not helped the marketing of Furman University. Same for the Women's golf National Championship in 1988.
The clip that Astro-Din posted on the 2001 Furman playoff victory over GSU gave me goosebumps. Did you see all those fans in the stands! Didn't get to go to that game, but I wish I had.
Re: “D. R. Hildebrand column: Cutting sports to steal endowments: The myth of football-funded athletics.
PostPosted:Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:23 am
by Furmanoid
Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for football. But I’m afraid it’s going to be harder and harder to justify the expense of FCS level football unless those stands start filling back up again. And I just don’t see it happening. Maybe it’s just my area, but our rec league football is dwindling down to nothing while our population is pretty much exploding. At least one local 4A HS (1400 students or so) can barely field a team. Our team has sucked the last couple of years but we were undefeated one of those regular seasons and last year it took a badly blown call to knock us out of the playoffs. Last night I watched the most god awful HS game I’ve ever seen- horrible execution, one team (Blythewood) with no punter, and kid after kid going down with cramps in 75 degree weather (my tennis girls run much more in much, much tougher conditions with no problem). Oh, and personal fouls about every second or third play. I would like to blame the coaches, but I think more and more of them are dealing with uncoachable kids.
Obviously I’m in a grumpy mood after a loss, but I’m genuinely worried about the future of this sport.